Indian Army 7th Light Cavalry embroidered Pagri Flash

[badgecollector]

hi all
can anyone give me some information on this item?
Indian Army 7th Light Cavalry embroidered Pagri Flash
is it genuine and what period is it?
i do intend to trade or move it on
cheers
bc

[Cribyn]

Hello bc

Very nice badge but no idea if it is genuine or not, sorry. However, the title '7th Light Cavalry' would date it to between 1922 and 1947.

Roger

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello bc

However, the title '7th Light Cavalry' would date it to between 1922 and 1947.

Roger

Why? As far as I know, the title is still in use.

The crown would restrict it to 1922-1950.

[badgecollector]

thanks guys
its really well made. the crown is raised (padded) which makes it look better than the pics show
bc

[Cribyn]

Hello Henk

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making.

We are looking at a badge with a King's crown and the title '7th Light Cavalry'. The most obvious candidate surely is the unit of the British Indian Army that existed between 1922 and 1947.

Yes, there is also the possibility that it was used after Independence when the regiment was allocated to the Indian Army (where it continues to exist I believe) but rather less likely I would have thought.

Roger

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello Henk

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making.

We are looking at a badge with a King's crown and the title '7th Light Cavalry'. The most obvious candidate surely is the unit of the British Indian Army that existed between 1922 and 1947.

Of course it is the 7th Light Cavalry created in 1922. But it did not stop existing in 1947.

Why would the badge not have been used after 1947? King George VI was still the monarch of independent India until it became a republic on 26 January 1950. Royal crowns, other embellishments and titles connected to the monarchy were only dropped then. I think it would have been an insult to the monarch when they would have removed the crown from their badge.

Thus the replacing badge with the Ashoka lions is post 1950.

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Of course it is the 7th Light Cavalry created in 1922. But it did not stop existing in 1947.

Why would the badge not have been used after 1947? King George VI was still the monarch of independent India until it became a republic on 26 January 1950. Royal crowns, other embellishments and titles connected to the monarchy were only dropped then. I think it would have been an insult to the monarch when they would have removed the crown from their badge.

Thus the replacing badge with the Ashoka lions is post 1950.

Hello Henk

I now understand your point.

However, every reference I have seen to this and similar badges, buttons and so on gives a date of 1922-1947 rather than 1950. I was merely following accepted practice!

Roger

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello Henk

I now understand your point.

However, every reference I have seen to this and similar badges, buttons and so on gives a date of 1922-1947 rather than 1950. I was merely following accepted practice!

Roger

There re a few members here on the forum that try to battle the popular believe that independence and partition was connected with the loss of any connection between the British royal house and the now Indian/Pakistan regiments. Specially when it comes to badges, you would expect the people here to know better.

It seems to be an uphill struggle though.

Remember that for Pakistan it is even the case until 1956 (Queen Elisabeth II was also queen of Pakistan for a short time, but I know of no QC Pakistani badges). I only know of one badge that was redesigned, that of the 15th Punjab Regiment lost it's Sikh quoit and got a crescent instead, but it kept it's crown.

[peter monahan]

I agree with Henk that it could well be a post-Partition piece and in fact I suspect it is. I've never seen an embroidered, padded badge attributed to the British IA, which doesn't mean much, as there are countless things I've never seen, but it is in a style of insignia I don't associate with the pre-47 IA.

OTOH, I can easily imagine a 'new' regiment - 7th LC, IA - wanting to puff it's lineage and 'look' with a new badge. I wonder if we might find similar badges for the 1947 and after period on other IA units?

[gurkharifles]

According to Nath's definitive work on Indian Cavalry badges IZZAT - "The regiment wore it's British era badge until 1950. The new design of the badge apart from the state emblem is similar to the old badge.
I think we can date your badge to 1934 > 1950. The reason is that the design of your badge was introduced in 1934 approved "by the King". Nath quotes correspondence seen relating to the change "The proposed alteration is primarily intended to strengthen the badge (sic metal ) which as at present authorised lacks solidity in shape. His Majesty is ordinarily averse to sanctioning change except in special circumstances".
There is no mention in the book of the cloth badge you illustrate - but that does not mean that it's not genuine. I'm in communication with Ashok and if it's not in his collection than I'm sure he'd be interested it purchasing it off you. Cheers Tim

[Mike Jackson]

It could well date from the Regiment's period in BRINDIV, Japan:

In August 1945 it (7 LC) was selected to form part of the British Indian Division (BRINDIV) This division served with the British Commonwealth Occupation Forces (BCOF) as part of the Allied Occupation Forces in Japan. The move to Japan occurred during March/April 1946. The regiment returned to India in August 1947.

I suggest this since ceremonial will have played a major part in the unit's role in Japan. Mike

[gurkharifles]

PM sent

[peter monahan]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

It could well date from the Regiment's period in BRINDIV, Japan:

That might make sense, as ceremonial duties plus, I suspect, the availability of cheap manufacturing, might have made such a badge desireable and affordable both.

Peter

[Frank Kelley]

Perhaps you mean Elizabeth?

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

It seems to be an uphill struggle though.

Remember that for Pakistan it is even the case until 1956 (Queen Elisabeth II was also queen of Pakistan for a short time, but I know of no QC Pakistani badges). I only know of one badge that was redesigned, that of the 15th Punjab Regiment lost it's Sikh quoit and got a crescent instead, but it kept it's crown.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Perhaps you mean Elizabeth?

I guess that is the one that comes nearest to it in the time frame.

Sorry for the typo. . I remember looking at it three times because it looked strange. And it is.