British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > Cavalry and Armoured Units

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18-05-15, 10:42 AM
macandpud macandpud is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 233
Default 8TH RECCE AND 14CLH CAP BADGES.

Just got these badges as part of a nice tin of armoured corps and tank unit badges,British and Canadian. I believe that the 14th CLH became the 8Th RECCE during ww2. I think the badges are ok as i have had an 8th Recce before.This particular one has a wonderful patina like you get on silver coins in an old cabinet.Any info on the units and badges would be much appreciated.Many thanks in advance.Mac
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6674.jpg (90.2 KB, 134 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6628.jpg (40.0 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6629.jpg (45.3 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6630.jpg (39.2 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6633.jpg (46.4 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6636.jpg (41.9 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6561.jpg (34.7 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6562.jpg (33.3 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6563.jpg (38.6 KB, 37 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 18-05-15, 03:29 PM
barriefield-brian's Avatar
barriefield-brian barriefield-brian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 393
Default

That's a real nice 8threcce. Why cant I ever find a deal like that. Cheers Brian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19-05-15, 06:57 PM
Tanker Mike's Avatar
Tanker Mike Tanker Mike is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,116
Default

The 14th Light Horse were before the 8 RECCE, the 14th LH became the 14th Hussars in 1940 then 8 RECCE during the war, then after the war in 1948 became the 14th Hussars, the Light Horse and Hussars badge look similar, except for the name on the scroll, the collars for both were "Free and Fearless" with the prancing horse.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19-05-15, 09:16 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,529
Default

A bit of a clarification. The wartime unit was the 8th Reconnaisance Regiment (14th Canadian Light Horse). The 8th Recce designation was the CAC name for the unit, which had the regimental sub-designation. For some reason the 8th Recce name became the operative name while other armoured and recce units which also had CAC primary designations but used their regimental names. For example the RCD's were the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) and the 2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and skipping up the CAC numbering, the 11th Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)) later became the 11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)).
As indicated above, for some reason the 8th Recce stuck with the primary CAC designation and used it as the basis for the cap badge and the shoulder title design.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19-05-15, 09:56 PM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,416
Default

My understanding is the 8th Recce was actually formed as a composite unit drawing personnel from other units in 2 CID and embracing the 8th Recce identity rather than 14th Canadian Hussars was to create a sense of unity and esprit de corps.


From: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-...i/14CH-eng.asp

"The regiment mobilized the '14th (Active) Canadian Hussars, CASF' for active service on 26 January 1941.18 It was converted to armour and redesignated: '8th Reconnaissance Battalion (14th Canadian Hussars), CASF' on 11 February 1941;19 '8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), CAC, CASF' 8 June 1942;20 and '8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), RCAC, CASF' on 2 August 1945.21 The unit was formed from personnel of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division in England and reinforcements from Canada.22 It landed in France on 7 July 1944 as part of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division, where it fought in North-West Europe until the end of the war.23 The overseas regiment was disbanded on 15 December 1945.24"

There is no mention of the regiment "embarking for the United Kingdom".


Phil
__________________
Courtesy of The Canadian Forces:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-.../lineages.html

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19-05-15, 10:13 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,529
Default

Hi Phil, I was under the same impression until a little while ago. Apparently a significant draft of 14 CLH personnel was sent overseas at the time the 8 Recce was formed from the personnel surplus due to the reorganization of the divisional recce.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 19-05-15, 10:26 PM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 501
Default

[QUOTE=Bill A;310093]...For some reason the 8th Recce name became the operative name while other armoured and recce units which also had CAC primary designations but used their regimental names. For example the RCD's were the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) and the 2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and skipping up the CAC numbering,...

...As indicated above, for some reason the 8th Recce stuck with the primary CAC designation and used it as the basis for the cap badge and the shoulder title design...[.../QUOTE]

Hi Bill

As I understand it, the wartime Corps units were all the have numbers and not names. 14th were the only suckers that fell for it. <wink>

"...Another of the changes that took effect on 11 February 1941 was the formal numbering of the units of the (Canadian Armoured) Corps, as Worthy (F.F. Worthington) had recommended eight months earlier in an effort to foster a distinctive Armoured Corps identity among units that came from very different backgrounds. The old cavalry units with historic names found this policy most distasteful, even though unit names continued to be used in brackets behind the new designations. The official name of the RCD for example became 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) while the Strathconas became the 2nd Canadian Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse).
The numbering system adopted was itself somewhat confused, reflecting in some cases seniority in the Cavalry Corps, and in others seniority of entry into the Armoured Corps. Units brought in after 11 February (1941) were assigned numbers sequentially based on dates of affiliation. While the numerical designators were used on all official documents until after the war was over, regimental names continued to be commonly used in practice, especially in the former cavalry regiments. With the sole exception of the 8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), all units continued to wear their own regimental cap badges. The policy on wearing regimental shoulder titles varied from one formation to another, ...."

page 90, The RCAC An Illustrated History, Marteinson & McNorgan, 2000

I wonder if there is mention of the policy of an Army or General Order? Oh, and one cannot say "RCD's". Bad english.

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 19-05-15, 10:29 PM
Darrell's Avatar
Darrell Darrell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 501
Default

...oh, and Mac?

Nice score.

regards
Darrell
__________________
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19-05-15, 10:36 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,529
Default

That is not to say the regiment embarked, but a large draft did. There are errors in the DHH site. There is no mention of an active battalion of the 16th/22nd Horse, but that regiment embarked and was disbanded with the rest of 3 CTB in 1943.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 20-05-15, 12:29 AM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,529
Default

Hi Darrel, Yes, the information from the RCAC history starts the explanation.
With the sole exception of the 8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), all units continued to wear their own regimental cap badges. The policy on wearing regimental shoulder titles varied from one formation to another, ....
There was more logic to the naming of the regimental titles than implied in that passage. Embroidered shoulder titles were authorized with RO 450 (overseas) in late 1940 and evolved from there. The policies became somewhat convoluted and confusing, leading to several schemes of insignia overseas. (All is explained in my eventually forthcoming "Fabric of War".) To summarize for this post, in the fall of 1942 an insignia policy was determined for the CAC overseas. It was decided the CAC was to have a common shoulder title reading Canadian Armoured Corps, worn in association with the appropriate imposed formation patches mid sleeve. The particular regimental abbreviation was either embroidered or later printed on the formation sign to which the unit was brigaded. So, in theory all armoured regiments would have the CAC title over a patch with their unit abbreviation. Immediately anomalies arose. Some units under the umbrella of the armoured corps organization were already wearing unit titles. All of 1 CTB had regimental titles at this time, Lord Strathcona's Horse had a regimental title, as did the recce regiments of 1 CID, and 3 CID. (Shoulder titles had been previously authorized under RO 450 for the support battalions and recce units). The OC 5 CAD had already decided that the units in his division would not wear shoulder titles and actually had imposed formation patches embroidered in brigade colours for the armoured regiments on the early order of battle for the division. The Stratcona's were required to take down their title (It was the one word "STRATHCONA'S for all ranks. It wasn't until after the war that the officers wore the single word title as a dress distinction.) Other formations started to follow this policy, but the re-organization of January 1943 focused on some problems. By the nature of their construction the imposed formation signs were expensive and difficult to make. If the unit was moved from one formation to another all their imposed signs became obsolete. Another issue,personnel assigned to other duties outside of their regiment, meant they would be without insignia. How would they be identified? All this could be resolved if soldiers wore a unit shoulder title and a plain formation patch.
Other issues arose. In 4 CAD, two units had been granted a dress distinction in the form of an embroidered shoulder title. The Canadian Grenadier Guards and the Governor General's Foot Guards both had been allowed embroidered titles in the late 1930's. When mobilized they had worn embroidered titles. And, for overseas the rest of the regiments on the division's order of battle had followed the practice for 1 and 3 CID, which was shoulder titles and plain patches. When converted to armoured, pressure was put on them to adopt the CAC scheme of insignia, but the CGG went to their Colonel-in-Chief with their concern and when George VI queried CMHQ and the senior combatant officer about this, the CGG were guaranteed their distinction (and that of the GGFG as well). With two of the three armoured regiments wearing shoulder titles and the question of manufacture and costs of all imposed patches on the table at CMHQ, it was decided to change the CAC policy and convert existing imposed patches to plain ones while authorizing shoulder titles for all regiments in the First Canadian Army. (Under RO 450 corps had been allowed imposed formation patches as well. For example, RCASC units in each division were authorized a division patch with the corps abbreviation imposed. These were very problematic for small corps like the CPC or CCS.) This impacted 2 CAB immediately and would eventually require changes in 5 CAD, 1 CAB and all other armoured regiments using the CAC scheme.
There was rhyme and reason for the titles adopted by the army. Sometimes the reasons were policy, others were more specific. In the 8 Recce, Lt.-Col. Churchill Mann wanted to foster unit esprit and felt adopting the unique cap badge and the shoulder titles using the CAC designation. He believed these badges would work towards welding together the disparate groups of personnel brought together to make his unit. (As a footnote, there are images of 8 Recce personnel wearing the 14 CLH badge overseas. Not all of Churchill Mann's attempts to enforce unit homogeneity were as successful as he wished.)
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur

Last edited by Bill A; 25-05-15 at 09:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20-05-15, 01:13 AM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,416
Default

As I have mentioned previously, my godfather was an officer in 8th Recce. He gave me his 8th Recce and 14th Canadian Light Horse cap badges. He transferred to the 8th Recce from the British Army. I believe he left the regiment in 1942 and spent the rest of the war with the Royal Canadian Dragoons.
I mention this as I suspect that 14th Canadian Light Horse badges would have been issued until 8th Recce badges were made available. Some pictures I have seen show the 14th CLH badges being worn after June 1944. I am guessing that the 8th Recce badges may not have been available to reinforcements.

Phil
__________________
Courtesy of The Canadian Forces:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-.../lineages.html

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 20-05-15, 03:07 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,529
Default

Hi Phil, There are also images of the 14 CLH badges being worn in Holland near or at the end of the war.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 20-05-15, 04:38 PM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Hi Phil, There are also images of the 14 CLH badges being worn in Holland near or at the end of the war.
That suggests to me that the 14 CLH cap badges were still in stores as an issue item.

Phil
__________________
Courtesy of The Canadian Forces:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-.../lineages.html

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 20-05-15, 08:38 PM
macandpud macandpud is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 233
Default thanks.

Many thanks all for the detailed info.Does anyone know if the 8th recce trained with or near the RTR or Armoured corps as i`m trying to work out if there is any link between the badges in this tin.They came from Dorset,Bovington etc? It looks more like a vets tin rather than a collectors tin. If only they could speak. All the best Mac
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6648.jpg (96.1 KB, 57 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 20-05-15, 09:33 PM
Tanker Mike's Avatar
Tanker Mike Tanker Mike is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,116
Default

I think its a collection, as the Para and Royal Marines and Artists Rifles are not armour related. Is the Para badge plastic?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:20 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.