Early Irish Guards SNCO Badge - Fire Gilt! - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

2747andy · #1 26-05-10, 08:20 PM

I've had this badge a good few years and always thought it to be of superior quality!! Saw one on Bosleys about 15 years ago that sold for about £70.. But was not sure about the finish!! I thought it might be a basic badge that someone had, had gilt?

After a recent thread about the process of "Fire Gilt" and that it was banned a long time ago reinforced my thoughts that mine was a good badge?

Thoughts please and when was "Fire Gilding" banned?

Andy

magpie · #2 26-05-10, 08:56 PM

I don't think it is banned but more of a resiction on it's use, due to the poisonous vapors of the mercury in the process.
Andy.

davec2 · #3 26-05-10, 09:20 PM

Hi Andy,

Andy ( magpie ), is correct, my wife's ( if I said Kath, only you would know who I was talking about ! ), nephew was a jeweller/sold jewellery but now works for a jewellers chain and he has advised me several times not to even attempt having something re-gilded using ' fire-gilt ', mainly because of the expense due to the stringent requirements under which this type of finish is now carried out, ie a lot of hazardous chemicals are involved etc, sorry about the long winded reply........

Dave.

PS, it's a nice badge......................................I bet it's not the one I've just ' won '.

DC.

2747andy · #4 26-05-10, 09:24 PM

Dave,
I know what you mean (not about Kath), the chemicals used are Mercury based (not the planet for those of you without a space ship) so their use comes with its hazzards!

Andy

orasot · #5 26-05-10, 09:34 PM

Here's one of mine that I assumed was some sort of fire gilt, Magpie & Joachim have seen the collection this came from, a gorgeous looking badge, shame the process is so hazardous !!!
Cheers, Wilf.

John Mulcahy · #6 27-05-10, 01:17 AM

Andy

with reference to the Irish Guards star. You are probably aware that from 1901 until c. 1914 Sgts and Pay Sgts of the Irish Guards had a unique pattern star. This was pattern no. 5031 sealed 24/09/01. It was the star of St Patrick in Gilt. The rank & file wore pattern 5032 in GM.

I have only seen two images of the Sgts gilt star, Bosleys Postal Auction 23/Apr/2003 lot 285 and the star on display in the collection at RHQ. Both of these stars differed from the rank & file vrsion not just in the gilt finish but the star had a more raised centre and a large shamrock with straight stem. The attachod photo (behind glass) is poor but should illustrate the straight shamrock stem with large leaves.

It does appear to me that regiments seemed to have renewed dies every several years so the chances of more than one die for tht Sgts badge in 14 of so years is high. Thus though the star you show is a different die than the ones I know of, it may well prove to be OK in the long run.

John

John Mulcahy · #7 27-05-10, 02:08 AM

Andy,

I have dug this out from the regimental journal. The shadowing between the badges is also present in the original article.

2747andy · #8 27-05-10, 07:47 AM

John,
thanks for the Information, very suprised to see the term "Pay Sergeant" used when refering to Irish Guards... I always thought this was a term exclusive to the Grenadier Guards (.. and still used by them), what everyone else calls a CQMS or Company Quartermaster Sergeant..

I have several Patterns of Irish Guards Cap Stars, including one with very elongated star tips..

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=15143

Andy

41st · #9 27-05-10, 06:44 PM

Andy,
The gilding used on older badges isn't necessarily fire gilt if it's just used on the front of the badge. That was just how gilding was done to limit waste.
Fire gilding isn't just the process it's the type of finish acheived as well.
Here are two examples of fire gilt finish. Both of these date to before 1855. The colour of the gilt on the helmet plate is much brighter in real life, it's not a particularly good photo.
Hwyl,
Kevin

seanhath · #10 03-10-16, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Andy

with reference to the Irish Guards star. You are probably aware that from 1901 until c. 1914 Sgts and Pay Sgts of the Irish Guards had a unique pattern star. This was pattern no. 5031 sealed 24/09/01. It was the star of St Patrick in Gilt. The rank & file wore pattern 5032 in GM.

I have only seen two images of the Sgts gilt star, Bosleys Postal Auction 23/Apr/2003 lot 285 and the star on display in the collection at RHQ. Both of these stars differed from the rank & file vrsion not just in the gilt finish but the star had a more raised centre and a large shamrock with straight stem. The attachod photo (behind glass) is poor but should illustrate the straight shamrock stem with large leaves.

It does appear to me that regiments seemed to have renewed dies every several years so the chances of more than one die for tht Sgts badge in 14 of so years is high. Thus though the star you show is a different die than the ones I know of, it may well prove to be OK in the long run.

John

Hello John,
I've been lucky enough to purchase one of these Sgts Gilt Stars. I'll do my best to get some photographs uploladed soon.
Out of interest - do you know what the hammer price was at Bosleys?

John Mulcahy · #11 04-10-16, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanhath

Hello John,
I've been lucky enough to purchase one of these Sgts Gilt Stars. I'll do my best to get some photographs uploladed soon.
Out of interest - do you know what the hammer price was at Bosleys?

I am afraid that I do not, if you e-mail Stephen he may be able to confirm it for you. Well done on finding one , I would love to see it. I was lucky to find one also, mis-described as an officers badge and quite a good price (for once!).

John

seanhath · #12 04-10-16, 07:25 AM

Here you go!
Unfortunately it appears to have been polished at some point in time. I will upload another picture of the rear of the star.

seanhath · #13 04-10-16, 07:28 AM

The rear, some evidence of gilt in the inner circle - and brasso!

seanhath · #14 04-10-16, 07:34 AM

On the same subject- I have another Irish Guards cap star that I've never seen anywhere else. It is slightly larger than the other ranks 1901 star and is beautifully made. The detail is superb - and I believe it is gilt or otherwise a 'non brass' star?
I accept that it may be modern - but perhaps a private purchase?
Any thoughts?

John Mulcahy · #15 04-10-16, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

I am afraid that I do not, if you e-mail Stephen he may be able to confirm it for you. Well done on finding one , I would love to see it. I was lucky to find one also, mis-described as an officers badge and quite a good price (for once!).

John

The catalogue guide price for that lot in 2003 was GBP 75-125

John