latest find

[argyll]

good morning,

this is my latest find in the fields of Artois :

- 2 Canadian shoulder title (who are different letters size)
- 1 identity tags

-1 : small letter


writing : CARON BROS MONTREAL 1916

- 2 : big letter


writing : BIRKS 1915

identity tags :

writing :
L JONES
29763 (or 5 or 6. for me it's a number 3 but not sure)

if you are anything information about this soldier, I will be delighted.

sorry for my English

thank's in advance

regards

michel

[Phil2M]

I would say 29768, just looks it to me.

Phil

[ebro]

Hi,
I would also read 8 at the end.
Eddie

[Voltigeur]

According to records at LAC, the no. 29768, is a number issued to the 16th batt. (Canadian Scottish) CEF.inValcartier in 1914.

Jo

[tipofthebeer]

Sort of off topic...

Michel,

How are the detecting laws in France?
Are they lenient or enforced based on area & ownership of property?

I live not far from Gettysburg & know just how serious the law is for relic hunting.

[argyll]

good morning,

after some research, I have find for the identity tags :

JONES Louis - 29763 - Liverpool regiment
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/D3155868

Description:
Medal card of Jones, Louis
Corps : Liverpool Regiment / Labour Corps
Regiment No :29763 / 391005
Rank : Private / Private

in this field I have find all units (London regiment - Canadian regiment - royal field artillery & another British units)

but I don't know to find in the Canadian archive the soldiers paper.

regards

michel

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by tipofthebeer

Sort of off topic...

Michel,

How are the detecting laws in France?
Are they lenient or enforced based on area & ownership of property?

I live not far from Gettysburg & know just how serious the law is for relic hunting.

Having had this discussion recently, as far as I am aware, to detect in France you need permission from the local magistrate or whatever the equivalent is -prefecture?- and all WWI and WWII items are property of the state, as are items from earlier periods.

I can post the written regulations if needed as I might in my simplified version have missed some key points of the matter.

[argyll]

Good evening,

The law in France should change but the associations are fighting to have the same system as in England.

There is a tolerance currently except in several regions which detection is prohibited (the Somme - Aisne - Marne - Meuse - Normandy...) by a prefectural Decree.

As long as we don't dig on archaeological and classified sites historical monument
This happens pretty much well.

Many police officers, gendarmes, military, justice personnel and other professions practice this hobby in France.

As long as we have the agreement of the owner and the Mayor of the commune and respect for cultures, things are going well.

When the Mayor needs to make an exhibition, I participate by presenting objects with the story of those above either in town or in schools.

last year, I had to appeal to the mine-clearing expert for the discovery of 25 shells of 18 pounder (explosive or gas)
the rocket had been made in the USA.
They were ready to be fired.

sometimes, I am called by farmers because they have lost a tool or by hunters or hikers who lost objects of value (jewels, key of car or phone ... )

Otherwise I don't used all the time the detector.

I often look on television programming (National Geographic Channel) with "Ring Master Tim » et « King Georges ».

I am also fascinated by the civil war.
I like the movie "Gettysburg"0

sorry for my English

regards

michel

[JerryBB]

Here they are.

The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted. However see appendix (L542) adopted in 2004.

Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern?) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching.

Article 2: All publicity and instructions on the use of metal detectors must carry the warning of the prohibition stated in Article 1, the penalties involved and also the reason for this legislation.

Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism.

Article 4: The reports drawn up by the various persons designated by Article 3 above will, until proved to the contrary, be given or sent, without delay, to the public prosecutor of the Republic in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed.

Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states:

Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the license of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated.

The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.

When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right.

Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class.
The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated.

Article 3 Whoever publicises or draws up publicity for, or draw up information about the use of metal detectors and fails to draw attention to the requirements of Article 2 of the Law will be punished according to the penalties applicable for offences of the fifth class.

Beaches are believed to be outside this Law.

Appendix (L542)
Art L542: No one can use equipment allowing metal target detection, to search monuments for objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology, without having first obtained an administrative authorisation, which may be given depending on the qualification of the applicant, as well as the nature of and reason for the research. Those who contravine are liable ti fines within the band class 5. The purpose of this regulation is the protection of archaeological sites. The authorisation of archaeological research using metal detectors requires the permission of the prefect of the area concerned.

(SOURCE: National Council of Metal Detecting).


in France, archaeological remains are protected by the Heritage Code, Art. L. 531-1 et seq, and historical and archaeological objects are in the same code, in particular by Articles L. 542-1 to L. 542-3.

So you need written permission from the land owner and the local authority and no permissions are ever given for any known battlefield sites.

[argyll]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

According to records at LAC, the no. 29768, is a number issued to the 16th batt. (Canadian Scottish) CEF.inValcartier in 1914.

Jo

it's possible because this Canadian units staying in this field during four month.



michel

[argyll]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Here they are.

The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted. However see appendix (L542) adopted in 2004.

Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern?) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching.

Article 2: All publicity and instructions on the use of metal detectors must carry the warning of the prohibition stated in Article 1, the penalties involved and also the reason for this legislation.

Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism.

Article 4: The reports drawn up by the various persons designated by Article 3 above will, until proved to the contrary, be given or sent, without delay, to the public prosecutor of the Republic in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed.

Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states:

Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the license of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated.

The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.

When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right.

Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class.
The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated.

Article 3 Whoever publicises or draws up publicity for, or draw up information about the use of metal detectors and fails to draw attention to the requirements of Article 2 of the Law will be punished according to the penalties applicable for offences of the fifth class.

Beaches are believed to be outside this Law.

Appendix (L542)
Art L542: No one can use equipment allowing metal target detection, to search monuments for objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology, without having first obtained an administrative authorisation, which may be given depending on the qualification of the applicant, as well as the nature of and reason for the research. Those who contravine are liable ti fines within the band class 5. The purpose of this regulation is the protection of archaeological sites. The authorisation of archaeological research using metal detectors requires the permission of the prefect of the area concerned.

(SOURCE: National Council of Metal Detecting).


in France, archaeological remains are protected by the Heritage Code, Art. L. 531-1 et seq, and historical and archaeological objects are in the same code, in particular by Articles L. 542-1 to L. 542-3.

So you need written permission from the land owner and the local authority and no permissions are ever given for any known battlefield sites.

this is the new question & answer (2010)
sorry it's in French.
the answer are yes & no for use the metal detector :

Objet: CHAP (2010)03963-LE NON RESPECT DE LA LOI 89-900 ET DU CODE DU PATRIMOINE -DÉTECTEURS DE MÉTAUX EN FRANCE
Monsieur,
Je reviens vers vous dans le cadre du dossier en référence.
Dans vos e-mails des 15 et 16 décembre 2010, vous estimez qu'il existe en France des obstacles non justifiés à l'utilisation de détecteurs de métaux.
Concernant les informations diffusées sur le site Internet de l'association RAPPAH dont vous faites état, j'observe qu'il s'agit d'un conflit de droit privé dans lequel la Commission n'a pas vocation à intervenir.
La loi du 18 décembre 1989 relative à l'utilisation des détecteurs de métaux soumet leur utilisation "à l'effet de recherches de monuments et d'objets pouvant intéresser la préhistoire, l'histoire, l'art ou l'archéologie", à une autorisation administrative "délivrée en fonction de la qualification du demandeur, ainsi que de la nature et des modalités de la recherche". Des sanctions pénales sont encourues en cas de méconnaissance de l'obligation ainsi énoncée. En effet, l'article 311-4-2 du Code pénal prévoit que /ILe vol est puni de sept ans d'emprisonnement et de 100000 € d'amende lorsqu'il porte sur: [ ... ] 2° Une découverte archéologique faite au cours de fouilles ou fortuitement". En outre, l'article 322-3-1 du même code prévoit que "La destruction, la dégradation ou la détérioration est punie de sept ans d'emprisonnement et de 100000 € d'amende lorsqu'elle porte sur: [ ... ] [u]ne découverte archéologique faite au cours de fouilles ou fortuitement, un terrain sur lequel se déroulent des opérations archéologiques ou un édifice affecté au culte".
TI convient d'abord d'indiquer que dans le dispositif actuel, l'utilisation d'un détecteur de métaux à des fins de loisir et hormis toute recherche archéologique (p.ex. recherche de biens de famille, d'objets et bijoux récents perdus, de minéraux, de météorites) est libre et le régime d'autorisation administrative institué par la loi n'a pas une portée générale. Il incombe au prospecteur amateur de s'informer sur la liste des sites archéologiques sur lesquels il ne peut pas se rendre sans autorisation préalable. En ce sens, l'administration concernée doit faire connaître la liste des sites et/ou interdire leur accès. Par ailleurs, le prospecteur doit posséder l'autorisation du propriétaire d'un terrain, qu'il est assuré de n1y trouver aucun site archéologique connu et que ses recherches ne visent pas à découvrir des monuments ou des objets pouvant intéresser la préhistoire, l'histoire, l'art ou l'archéologie. Les découvertes fortuites, présentant des caractères historiques ou archéologiques doivent être légalement déclarées, mais le prospecteur doit prouver que l'objet a été trouvé par hasard et qu'il ne l'avait pas recherché sciemment Ce n'est que lorsque le prospecteur ne présente pas de preuves suffisantes que des sanctions pénales sont encourues par les prospecteurs amateurs. De même, ce n'est que dans l'hypothèse où le prospecteur a violé l'interdiction d'accès à un site archéologique qu'il peut être sanctionné.
TI semble donc que la règlementation française n'interdise pas de manière générale
l'utilisation des détecteurs de métaux mais soumette simplement l'utilisation de ces
appareils à des fins de recherches archéologiques à un régime d'autorisation
25/09/2011
b6age 4 de 6
administrative ce qui semble tout à fait justifiable . Si toutefois vous disposez d'éléments permettant de prouver une pratique administrative générale et constante contraire impliquant une interdiction générale d'utilisation de ces appareils, et non pas une simple "intention" émanant d'un membre de la Sous-direction de l'Archéologie de modifier l'application du cadre juridique actuel, je vous serai reconnaissant de me les communiquer à votre plus prompte convenance et au plus tard dans un délai de quatre semaines à compter de la présente.

12ème législature
Question N° : 15336 de M. Lang Pierre ( Union pour un Mouvement Populaire - Moselle ) QE
Ministère interrogé : culture et communication
Ministère attributaire : culture et communication
Question publiée au JO le : 31/03/2003 page : 2337
Réponse publiée au JO le : 27/10/2003 page : 8194

Rubrique : patrimoine culturel
Tête d'analyse : protection
Analyse : détecteurs de métaux. utilisation. réglementation
Texte de la QUESTION : M. Pierre Lang attire l'attention de M. le ministre de la culture et de la communication sur l'utilisation des détecteurs de métaux par des particuliers, sans rapport avec une quelconque prospection archéologique. La loi n° 89-900 du 18 décembre 1989 pose dans son article 1er que l'utilisation de détecteurs de métaux « à l'effet de recherche de monuments et d'objets pouvant intéresser la préhistoire, l'histoire, l'art ou l'archéologie » nécessite une autorisation administrative. Cependant, M. Jack Lang avait alors précisé dans une réponse ministérielle publiée au Journal officiel du 9 avril 1990 : « Le régime d'autorisation administrative institué par la loi n'a pas une portée générale. Son champ d'application est limité à la prospection archéologique. Reste donc tout à fait libre, sous réserve de réglementations particulières relatives notamment à la sécurité, l'utilisation de ces détecteurs à des fins autres. » Il souhaiterait savoir si, conformément à l'interprétation donnée à l'époque, l'utilisation des détecteurs de métaux dans les champs ou les bois demeure libre, à condition qu'elle n'ait aucune visée archéologique.

Texte de la REPONSE : Ainsi qu'il a été indiqué dans la réponse ministérielle citée par l'honorable parlementaire, le régime d'autorisation administrative institué par la loi n° 89-900 du 18 décembre 1989 relative à l'utilisation des détecteurs de métaux n'a pas une portée générale et son champ d'application est limité à la protection archéologique. Une difficulté d'application, que l'on ne saurait dissimuler, réside dans le fait que le champ géographique dans lequel l'utilisation de détecteurs de métaux serait assurée de n'avoir aucune incidence archéologique, ne peut, hormis quelques zones géologiquement limitées, être fixé de manière définitive. En dépit de l'intensification des recherches archéologiques, notamment sous forme de prospection-inventaire ou de prospection thématique, de nouveaux lieux d'intérêt archéologique sont découverts très fréquemment et il est impossible d'exclure de l'application de la loi certaines parties du territoire plutôt que d'autres. Néanmoins, comme l'indiquait la réponse publiée le 9 avril 1990, en application de la loi précitée, l'utilisation de détecteurs de métaux sans visée archéologique est libre.

it's the French law !!!
with the each new government, all the law changefor all .

the detection is prohibited in :
the Somme - Aisne - Marne - Meuse - Normandy... by a prefectural Decree (each contry touch by the 2 world war)
but not the nord - pas de Calais.
because

michel

[JerryBB]

I do understand that the laws have changed and if those I posted are out of date, sorry.

I do cannot answer your question.

[ubervamp]

I used to have a metal detector. On my first exploration in the garden I uncovered a rusty hammer, 3 empty bean tins and 3/4 of a 1953 Volvo Amazon, courtesy of the first owner.
After extracting this we were left with a sizeable pit which I thought might be suitable for a Koi pond.
My better half thought otherwise, so now it's filled in and hosts Rhodenderons. My metal detector was also, mysteriously, traded in for weed wacker.
So if anyones planning a trip to The Somme next summer, and spots a bloke weed wacking the area, feel free to to say hi!
I also have a 1953 Volvo mirror and ashtray to sell, if of interest?

Colin