Beach groups

[boots and saddles]

If we can drop back to where we were a few days ago to our thread on fouled anchors & beach groups, what would this one be?

[Peter Brydon]

I am sure this was the subject of a thread some time ago.It is a sign I understand of one of the units making up the Beach group of the 3rd Canadian Division.

The Liverpool Irish wore the Beach group sign on top of the 3rd Canadian Div sign as the top part of this combination.

This badge is illustrated on Rod Floods web site and I presume he must have sold an example some time ago.

P.B.

[Old Smelly]

This red triangle is for Royal Berkshire Regt, in this case I think it's 5th bn who were a Beach Group trained and loaned to canadian 3rd Div
Lee

[4966Ian]

Hi Folks,

According to my records and as already stated this combination of badges was for the 5th Battn Royal Berkshire Regiment, Number 8 Beach Group.

However, I didn't record in my notes what the source of that information was. So best to treat the "Number 8 Beach Group" bit as suspect until proven by one of the more knowledgable members. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

As an aside, the versions I have seen in the past just have the round red & white fouled anchor badge straight on to the uniform, they didn't have the grey/blue rectangle behind the badge. Not sure what the significance of that is.

Cheers

Ian

[Voltigeur]

I can also confirm that 5th Bn. Royal Berkshire were part of No.8 Beach Group. (No.7 was 8th Bn. Kings Regiment).Both units part of 102 Beach Sub-Area of G.H.Q. Army and Corps Troops Under Command,3 CDN INF DIV. on D-Day.

This information is taken from; General Note on Operations issued by A.C,I.G.S. (Operations) War Office, June 1944. (C.M.H.Q. file 4/Gen Apprec/3.) amended on basis of Order of Battle, War Office, 29 June 44.

Jo

[4966Ian]

Hi Jo,

Excellent research/knowledge. I will update my notes accordingly.

Many thanks for replying.

Ian

[Old Smelly]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

I can also confirm that 5th Bn. Royal Berkshire were part of No.8 Beach Group. (No.7 was 8th Bn. Kings Regiment).Both units part of 102 Beach Sub-Area of G.H.Q. Army and Corps Troops Under Command,3 CDN INF DIV. on D-Day.

This information is taken from; General Note on Operations issued by A.C,I.G.S. (Operations) War Office, June 1944. (C.M.H.Q. file 4/Gen Apprec/3.) amended on basis of Order of Battle, War Office, 29 June 44.

Jo

Just to confirm again, I found this in an old DoERR journal(1994). It shows the memorial plaque in Normandy, sorry for the quality of the scan but I think you should be able to make out the badges at the top and the script.
Lee

[sailorbear]

HI, very interesting thread but can someone explain to me exactly what the beach groups were and what formations made them up?

Regards Tony

[Danny]

Hello Tony,
There is some very good information on the Beach groups that might be of use to you on the canadiansoldiers.com website.

Link below to the thread.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173...1/Beach+Groups


Regards

Danny

[Mike_2817]

My Beach Ordnance Shoulder Title & Beach Groups Patch



This Beach Group patch was worn with a non-standard Red on Dark Navy Blue
“BEACH ORDNANCE” shoulder title by RAOC Beach Detachment personnel.

Beach Groups were made up of Support Arms with Infantry protection to provide front line support during the Normandy landing,
and were only intended to be active for up to six weeks. Personnel also had wide White Bands painted on their helmets.

Two RAOC Beach Detachments were deployed on each Normandy Beach Sector, comprising Ammunition & Stores Platoons.
The first detachment going ashore within hours of 0 hour, The second up to 12 hours later in reserve.

Setting up an ammunition dump under fire would not have been fun believe me.

I specialise in RAOC/RLC insignia and would be greatfull of any information, illustrations or pictures of insignia being worn.

[GCR817]

I think this photo shows the patch in question (start of this string) being worn. The photo is of Canadians on the beach at Normandy along with Beach Group members and German POWs who are being put to good work. The second two pics are enlargements from the first photo,

Geoff

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

My Beach Ordnance Shoulder Title & Beach Groups Patch



This Beach Group patch was worn with a non-standard Red on Dark Navy Blue
“BEACH ORDNANCE” shoulder title by RAOC Beach Detachment personnel.

Beach Groups were made up of Support Arms with Infantry protection to provide front line support during the Normandy landing,
and were only intended to be active for up to six weeks. Personnel also had wide White Bands painted on their helmets.

Two RAOC Beach Detachments were deployed on each Normandy Beach Sector, comprising Ammunition & Stores Platoons.
The first detachment going ashore within hours of 0 hour, The second up to 12 hours later in reserve.

Setting up an ammunition dump under fire would not have been fun believe me.

I specialise in RAOC/RLC insignia and would be greatfull of any information, illustrations or pictures of insignia being worn.

Hello,
I fear the Beach Ordnance shoulder title you have shown is a Pakistanaise reproduction... isn't it? J-F

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by rubicon

Hello,
I fear the Beach Ordnance shoulder title you have shown is a Pakistanaise reproduction... isn't it? J-F

I have two differant genuine 'Beach Ordnance' patches of which this is one, as well as a 'Pakistani Copy' with paper backing for comparison, and I can tell you I know which is which, plus the provenance of the above example.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

I have two differant genuine 'Beach Ordnance' patches of which this is one, as well as a 'Pakistani Copy' with paper backing for comparison, and I can tell you I know which is which, plus the provenance of the above example.

Hello,
I have thought it is a Pakistani copy because on your picture it looks very similar to one I have in my fake box to compare with the real items.
I bought it 10 years ago in UK, a seller sold them by hundreds for 2 pounds each, and we had a good talk about them, he told me they were made in Pakistan. I have seen the first Pakistan fakes around 1995 in France and after I saw them ny hundreds in UK and at that time they didn't have any paper baking. They are easy to detect, it is a "mess of threads" at the back of the title. Note the Beach Ordnance shoulder title I have shown there is a Pakistani fake "first pattern"... Regards. J-F

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by rubicon

Hello,
I have thought it is a Pakistani copy because on your picture it looks very similar to one I have in my fake box to compare with the real items.
I bought it 10 years ago in UK, a seller sold them by hundreds for 2 pounds each, and we had a good talk about them, he told me they were made in Pakistan. I have seen the first Pakistan fakes around 1995 in France and after I saw them ny hundreds in UK and at that time they didn't have any paper baking. They are easy to detect, it is a "mess of threads" at the back of the title. Note the Beach Ordnance shoulder title I have shown there is a Pakistani fake "first pattern"... Regards. J-F

Yes there seems to be a latter batch with a black paper backing in an attempt to cover the threads. I have seen some at militara fairs, but not in great quantities! In fact for the size of the RAOC during WWII you do not see that much of any Ordnance Insignia for that matter....

I obtained my first example around 1990 from a former RAOC Soldier who had served in 11 Ordnance Beach Detachment. The second was in the pocket of a Officers No1 Dress Tunic which I was sold, and upon checking I also beleave it to be genuine as well. Since I only collect RAOC/RLC insignia I tend to check with examples held in the RAOC Archive as well as other like minded collectors.

The following Advance RAOC Units were deployed to the Beech Areas:

101 Beach Area - Sword Sector
1 Corps - 3 British Div Front

D-Day
11 Ordnance Beach Detachment
12 Ordnance Beach Detachment
44 Ordnance Ammunition Company

102 Beach Area - Juno Sector
1 Corps - 3 Canadian Div Front

D-Day
9 Ordnance Beach Detachment
14 Ordnance Beach Detachment
15 Ordnance Beach Detachment
45 Ordnance Ammunition Company
Composite Canadian Ordnance Maintenance Detachment
D-Day Plus 1
Canadian Ordnance Maintenance Company

104 Beach Area - Gold Sector (Mulberry Docks)
30 Corps - 50 Div Front

D-Day
7 Ordnance Beach Detachment
10 Ordnance Beach Detachment
36 Ordnance Beach Detachment
43 Ordnance Ammunition Company
D-Day Plus 1
1 Ordnance Maintance Company
17 Advance Ordnance Depot

As far as I can ascertain only the OBD's & OAC's wore the Beach Ordnance Titles with Beach Group Badge and White Band to Helmets.

A good book on RAOC units is;
21 Army Group
The History of the Campaign
by Major J. Lee-Richardson R.A.O.C.
Printed by RAOC Publications, Germany 1946
and is the official history.