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#1
27-12-09, 06:12 PM
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14 (YCV) Bn, The Royal Irish Rifles shoulder title.
Gentlemen
I would like your input and advice regarding the shoulder title shown below. I bought this item when I first started collecting in the mid 1980’s and when my knowledge of fakes and re-strikes was negligible. I was rearranging a frame over Christmas and had a chance to take it out for a good look at it for the first time in years. I have some doubts about it and hope some of the experts on YCV /UVF items may be able to help. It is a large title 29.88mm high (letters themselves are 16.85mm high) and 50.14mm greatest width. The title is in white metal with white metal loops (with feet as you can see). YCV titles are not common and thus I have not had a chance to compare it directly with any other examples. The images of the titles I do have are with a separate numeral and the “joints” between the letters are of a different pattern. The loops also cause me a little concern. I would welcome any comments or input. 
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#2
27-12-09, 07:50 PM
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perhaps i can help
the YCV title below come from my WW1 grandfather collection. for me it is a 100 % genuine.... it is not in very good condition (on loop brocken....), but i hope the pictures help you cheers
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#3
27-12-09, 08:35 PM
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Merci JP
Your post is extremely helpful and I put a lot of faith in your grandfather's collection and I have little doubt that the one you have showed is genuine. I note the round loops and quite a bit of flux/braze alloy where the loops are joined to the title. This is the type of title I see most often, note the difference in how the top of the "Y" and "V" are in these two samples. Two questions JP if I may 1) Your loop look like brass or gilding metal - is this correct? 2) What are the dimensions of your title please? John
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#4
27-12-09, 09:58 PM
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John,
Did the 14th Bn RIR actually wear the YCV title in army uniform? Or did they wear the RIR title? Undoubtedly they would have been worn by the pre-war YCV organisation before they joined up, but have never been sure how much of their insignia, apart from the distinctive cap badge was worn in the battalion. By all accounts a unit with a very high reputation. John
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#5
27-12-09, 10:51 PM
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Hi John
Faugh a Ballagh raises a good question, and I am not sure of the answer. Someone will know? As you are probably aware, the 14th Battn was originally formed from the Belfast volunteers in Sept 1914. I would speculate that this title is post Sept 1914. The Belfast Volunteers wore a specific badge as far as I am aware, so can't see this being worn with "YCV titles? Does anyone have further information? Why the "1"? This is another one for my wants list. Have never seen or heard of one with the letter "1" though. Just the straight "YCV" title in white metal. I have a picture of one as below, but afraid I can't provide exact dimensions, but when scaled alongside anther badge, it does look to be similar size to yours. I don't have a reverse picture I'm afraid, but your loops look OK to me Yet another thread to watch. Happy New Year to All! Neil
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#6
28-12-09, 12:46 AM
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[QUOTE=Neil Pearce;55337]Hi John
The Belfast Volunteers wore a specific badge as far as I am aware, so can't see this being worn with "YCV titles? Does anyone have further information? Why the "1"? Neil Usually when found with a "1", the 1 is a separate numeral worn above the 'YCV" title. I am lead to believe that the "1" signified the 1st (or Ulster) regiment of the Young Citizen Volunteers. Anecdotal information I am afraid. The probability of it only being worn a a pre-war, non-military title (if original) is plausible. John Last edited by John Mulcahy; 28-12-09 at 02:52 AM. Reason: clarification of wear period.
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#7
28-12-09, 01:47 AM
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Noted John. Indeed plausible..
It doesn't answer your original question, but was the "YCV" title without the numeral worn by the 14th? There were both WM and brass versions of the cap badge. The officers badge shown in KK (which I have never seen an example of) has a scroll inscribed "Young Citizens of Ireland Volunteers". It may follow that the titles either continued, or date after Sept 1914? Cheers, Neil
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#8
28-12-09, 09:52 AM
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YCV
The YCV were formed in 1913. There was to be four battalions raised, one in each of the provinces of Ireland. But only the Ulster battalion (No.1) was ever raised. The YCV cap badge and collars were worn by the or's of the 14th Bn. Royal Irish Rifles, but not the buttons. Officers were commisioned into the RIR and wore the insignia of the RIR.
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#9
28-12-09, 11:22 AM
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Thanks IH. That's cleared a few questions up. Fantastic!
So, the officers didn't wear the badge as quoted in KK1152. Was this badge then a "special purchase" item? If so, than I guess I have to decide if it stays on the wants list. I suspect I'll be waiting for some time for this one to surface! Also, just for the sake of clarity, can we assume the title John has with the "1" was worn 1913, and the straight "YCV" title was worn by the 14th RIR post Sept 1914 ? Cheers, Neil
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#10
28-12-09, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
This may confuse or clarify things! There were officers within the pre war YCV organisation, and they would have worn the YCV officers badge. This was essentially an organisation for young men similar to the Boys Brigade or Scouts. However within the 14th (YCV) Battalion Royal Irish Rifles, the officers wore the badges and insignia of the Royal Irish Rifles. I hope this is of use to you John
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#11
28-12-09, 12:54 PM
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Thanks John. All clear now!
Cheers, Neil
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#12
28-12-09, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
size 17mm X 50mm, brass loop
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#13
06-01-10, 03:05 AM
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Does anyone have a copy of the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research vol XXI?
In that vol at approx pages 125 - 129 is a illustrated article titled "The Badges of Kitcheners' Army" or some such title. I have managed to obtain a photo copy of pages 126 & 127, tantalizingly this 1 YCV title is illustrated (with the 1 directly attached to the title) but I do not have the pages with the commentary , nor do I have easy access to a copy of the journal. Can anyone provide me with scans of the other pages of this article please? thanks John
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#14
06-01-10, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Can you clarify the year for me I am sure I have it somewhere but I am having problems tracking this copy down.... david Last edited by wright241; 06-01-10 at 10:53 AM. Reason: text error
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#15
06-01-10, 11:09 AM
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Just as the situation in this query was starting to look fairly clear, here's the text of an email I received from a friend of mine who has a knowledge and collection of all things RIR/RUR second to none. Tried to get him onto the forum, but no luck so far. anyway - here it is:-
re. your query about YCV titles , as usual its not quite black and white . Titles were worn by some but not all other ranks on khaki service dress and were being worn as early as 1914 as photos in The Bramshott Book will prove . I would suggest that both white metal and brass would have been worn at the same time and that if you were a pre war Young Citizen you wore what you already had ie. white metal. Brass titles exist and I would assume these were a later idea as they are much scarcer . I also have titles with a 1 attached on top of the YCV in both bronzed brass and silver plated which can only be officers pre 1914. I dont think I have any photo evidence of officers in the 14th. Rifles wearing titles but must check. So there you are. I must try and get a copy of the book mentioned Regards John
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