Its interesting what turns up

[badger123]

A while ago I posted some photographs of a Blue Cloth Helmet my son bought which is in now in our collection.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ghlight=rideal

It belonged to an officer in the 5th York and Lancs called John George Edmund Rideal. The helmet came with a cap in a storage tin complete with brass name plaque.

Not only have I managed to find out more about John Rideal but have by luck managed to get hold of photographs of John Rideal wearing the very same helmet. (see below)

Whilst I am dead cuffed to have found some photographs of who eventually became Lt Col Rideal DSO, I was blown away when I found this piece of footage from the Yorkshire Film Archive of the 5th Y&L which not only shows the battalion going off to war but actually shows the then Capt Rideal who was at the time the battalion Machine Gun Officer. He can be seen at 32 seconds in, 2nd man from the left, 1st rank standing-he is the officer with a very short tie hanging out of his tunic!

http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/...sley-battalion

Its nice to be able to see photographs of the helmet being worn but the link to the man is really brought home after seeing him on film.

Ivan

[Phillip Herring]

I love it when you can link militaria to a real person!
Thanks.

Phil

[Graham Stewart]

scan0002.jpg

Now this is were I become pedantic - T.F. Regulations 1912(amended to 1st December 1914) - Section 9, Officers Uniform - Para 453
"Except in the case of corps for which special uniforms have been sanctioned, full dress uniform will, as far as possible, conform to that of corresponding units of the regular forces, silver lace and white metal buttons and ornaments being substituted for gold lace and gilt metal. Yeomanry regiments which prior to the formation of the Territorial Force had permission to wear gold lace and gilt ornaments retain this distinction."

So in reality it's a post-Great War helmet plate and wasn't worn in the 1914 photo. Sanction to wear gold lace, gilt buttons & ornaments was for 'war service'.

[badger123]

Sorry Graham, I don't think it is a post war helmet or plate.

Rideal was a Lt in both photographs of him wearing his helmet (including the one dated March 1914) and he was a Captain when the battalion went to war in August 1914 (therefore the photographs pre date WW1).

He was Gazetted as a 2nd Lt in Jan 1910 and if I read your post correctly and the TF regs, by 1912 he should have been wearing a helmet/plate that corresponds to the regular units ie gilt and not silver. Surely this helmet plate is the same as the 1st and 2nd Y&L and therefore conforms to the regs of 1912?

Ivan

[Peter Brydon]

The picture here is of a helmet plate which is identical to one on a helmet which was sold recently and which originally belonged to an officer who was commissioned into the 9th kings Liverpools on 1st June 1913.

It seems, if my understanding is correct, that this plate complies with the T.F. Regulations then in force ( in Silver rather than gilt ).

BUT not all regular officers followed dress regulations to the letter so how much more likely that territorial officers ( or their tailors ) may not have done so ?

P.B.

[badger123]

I may be getting confused now.

Peter's 1913 plate is in silver, but Grahams post seems to suggest that in 1912, the plates should be in gilt (to come into line with regular units)?

Do the 1912 regs say the helmet plates should be sliver or gilt? Rideal's plate is in gilt and as far as I can see, that is right according to the regulations?

Ivan

[Peter Brydon]

Ivan,

First of all what a great find,both the helmet and cap are superb.

If I understand the situation ,the TF regulations talk about silver lace ,buttons and ornaments being substituted for the gold lace and gilt buttons of the regulars. ( except where special uniforms had been authorised- meaning as examples rifle and scottish style uniforms ).

This is why I think Graham was making the point about your helmet-strictly following the regulations you would have expected it,if purchased by a territorial officer pre 1914, to have had a silver helmet plate and silver fittings.

In recognition of their service during WW1 the territitorials were allowed to adopt the uniforms as worn by their regular battalions. Therefore any territorial officer purchasing a home service pattern helmet ( and there would probably have been very few )in the 1920`s would have acquired one with a gilt helmet plate and fittings the same as a regular officers one.

I hope my understanding of what was being said is correct ( I will soon be told if it is not ).

Peter

[badger123]

Thanks Peter, that all makes sense.

If understand correctly and I have correctly interpreted the regs dated 1912 that Graham posted, units which had silver/WM ornaments should have substituted them for gilt.

This being the case, the 2 photographs one dated March 1914 and the other one being just before WW1 when Rideal was a full Lt, should show a helmet plate that is gilt and not silver.

Therefore, surely Rideal's helmet plate/chain/spike etc in our collection is correct for the period as they are all gilt? (As per this picture)

Or have I totally lost the plot?

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by badger123

Thanks Peter, that all makes sense.

If understand correctly and I have correctly interpreted the regs dated 1912 that Graham posted, units which had silver/WM ornaments should have substituted them for gilt.

This being the case, the 2 photographs one dated March 1914 and the other one being just before WW1 when Rideal was a full Lt, should show a helmet plate that is gilt and not silver.

Therefore, surely Rideal's helmet plate/chain/spike etc in our collection is correct for the period as they are all gilt? (As per this picture)

Or have I totally lost the plot?

Your helmet plate in 1914 would have been silver and not gilt - the only units apart from Regulars wearing gilt ornaments in 1914, were the Special Reserve(formerly Miltia). It was only after the Great War that regular pattern uniforms/badges etc were taken into wear by Territorial officers - however few would as many pre-1914 T.F. officers perished.

Your York & Lancs photo's portray 'Territorials' who in 1914 were easily distinguished from the Regulars & Militia by their dress and badges as stated in T.F. Regs 1912, which were amended up to December 1914 - meaning that amendments had taken place in those Reg's, but this did not include the Para quoted. Amendments are easily identified as they appear in the margin as an underlined A.O..

[ncc]

not wishing to hijack this thread but does anyone know when officers stopped wearing home service helmets.
Bob

[Peter Brydon]

Bob,

They ( home service pattern helmets ) are still included in Dress Regulations 1934 ( para 739) and on occasions such as weddings I think they continued to be worn much later as part of full dress however I dont think many officers generally equiped themselves with this item after WW1 but I stand to be corrected.

The one thing that is certain with militaria is that what should have been worn was often not.

Peter

[ncc]

thanks for that peter,always wondered about leic tf officers plate(same as regulars but without honours).
Bob