Is it possible to date Royal Navy Rate badges?

[Jibba Jabba]

Nothing really more to say as the question is in the title. Ive always wondered if its possible to date, say a 1920's divers patch from a 1950's? What are the differences in construction and materials.

Thank you for your time.

[RCN]

Yes it is but its not an exact science unfortunately, but if one has seen enough of them one can usually get the period reasonably close, that is to say it is possible to tell say a WWI rate badge from a 1950's period rate badge.

I will illustrate some examples from some of my threads I have illustrated in the RCN section.

First off, these are very rare Victorian period rate badges & you can see by the handcrafted workmanship they are very old:

the badges are, from L to R: Gunnery Instructor, Chief Gunners mate, & Chief Petty Officer Cap badge. These badges were worn in the 1860-1900 time frame.

Victorian Naval rate & rank badges are very very hard to obtain.

I will illustrate some more from the WWI period next.

Bryan

[RCN]

Here are more Victorian period rate & rank badges. Most of these badges came with a Victorian sailor's medals & I have had them for many yrs, however saying that, the Petty Officer rank badge on the right - the crown is quite different from the other Victorian crowns, so I am not 100% certain that that badge is in reality a Victorian period badge. It may be but I cannot say 100%.

Bryan

[RCN]

Here are scans of some WWI period Torpedo rate badges.

The time frame from 1901 to the Great War & the interwar period (1920's -30's) the rate badges are made with a thicker embroidery thread, sometimes referred to as "chain stitching". They also tend to be a duller red in colour, not as bright as the WWII & post WWII period badges.

I have also att'd a scan of the reverse of these Torpedo badges & on them can see the type of lose weave brown/tan burlap cloth that the embroidery thread was stitched to. This is a good indicator of a WWI era 1920's period badge.

I will illustrate some more branches from this period as well next....

Bryan

[RCN]

Illustrated below is a pre WWI period Torpedo Coxswain rate badge. This badge lasted from 1903 to approx 1930, so there will of course, be variants in the type of embroidery for that time span.

The chain stitching in this badge is quite 'tight', ie: close together & the reverse burlap backing has been coated with a type of animal based glue that has darkened with age.

Bryan

[RCN]

Illustrated below is the Torpedo Instructor's rate badge from the pre WWI period. During WWI this rate badge became the Torpedo Gunners Mate rate & lasted until 1920.
The badge is old but one can still see the thick embroidery typical of this period.
On the reverse is also seen the tan burlap backing that the thread is stitched to, & the thick chain stitching can be somewhat better seen in this view,

Bryan

[RCN]

Illustrated are Chief Petty Officers matched sets (for wear on the lapels of the uniform tunic) Torpedo Gunners Mate of the WWI period. This rate badge appeared in 1909 & lasted until the mid 1920's.
Note how the torpedos are crossed - left over right on one & right over left on the other - thus creating a matched set.

It cannot be seen in the scan but these badges are quite thick, that is to say they are padded below the embroidery, especially in the gold wire example.

The Kings crown tends to be somewhat smaller in the WWI period badges as well. & one will be able to view the difference when iillustrate some WWII period PO & CPO rate badges later.

Again, on the reverse can be viewed the brown/tan burlap backing with the animal based glue over the red embroidery. I think this glue was applied to keep the thread from unravelling on the reverse - there is a lot of 'construction stitching' on the reverse, as can be seen in these, & prior examples. The glue cannot be seen very well in the gold wire example but its there in places.

Bryan

[RCN]

Illustrated now are some rate badges of the Signal branch -

Chief Yeoman of Signals in gold wire & red embroidery. This rate badge appeared in 1909 & continued through WWI & into the 1920's period.
They were worn on the lapels of the CPO tunics.

The red set is uncut - something very rarely seen these days.

The gold set has been worn & I too have the recipient's medals.

Have also shown the reverse of both & the 'construction' embroidery can be viewed quite well in the red set. The stitching is quite lose in this example & would not take much to get it apart as very little glue has been applied.

So will continue adding more badges to this series in future,


Bryan

[Jibba Jabba]

Thank you Bryan. That is a very informative response.

[RCN]

Thank you, I will continue to add more examples later, however I am away all day today. I have a large to collection to draw upon!

Bryan

[Jibba Jabba]

Some WW2 stuff would be nice followed by some 1950's..if you offering to add more This thread should become a sticky I think.

[RCN]

Here illustrated are some Gunnery branch rate badges of the WWII period.

These badges are embroidered in the 'chain stiching' style I mentioned earlier, & when compared to say a 1950's period rate badge, one can see the difference. The early wartime badges are still quite thick & the 'chain stitching' is obvious.

The reverse of the badges are also shown, & one can see the burlap backing was still in use. Later in the war the burlap backing seemed to be superceded by an 'off white' or black cloth backing. You can still see the thick thread stitching on the reverse, but now there is no animal glue on the reverse.The glue patches you see are from being stuck on a cardboard backing for display somewhere in their lives.

No hard & fast rule for distinguishing a 1930's period badge from a WWII period badge, in the early part of the war in any event. A lot of badges from the 30's survived into & were worn during the war.

Bryan

[RCN]

Here are couple more Gunnery rates, two different manufacturers. The single star Layer rate is quite thick & has a lose style of 'chain stiching', it probably dates from the interwar period.
The two star Layer rate is a later period, probably wartime, its a tighter style of 'chain stitching' & not as thick. Both have the brown burlap backing & the typical stitching of this period can be clearly seen.

B

[RCN]

Here are a couple examples of wartime Fleet Air Arm (FAA) Rate badges.
These rate badges did not appear till 1939 & lasted until approx '48.

They too have the 'chain stitching' of the period & on the reverse the 'stitch holding' glue has reappeared, its hard to see in the scans but its there.

B

[RCN]

Now here is a rare set for you! Gunnery Armourer rates.

Gunnery Armourer rate first appeared in 1890, & these would date from the pre War period, just due to their age, & they look the part! All of the signs of age are present including the wear on two of them, & reverse is consistent with the pre war period. The red example may well date from the WWI period. The blue one, believe it or not, is mint & unworn!

B