Royal Indian navy buttons

[Martyn123]

Good evening

Are these Victorian period buttons with Victorian jubilee crowns out are they early 20th century. One has a kite registration mark as part of its backstamp and is made by Firmins the other has a Calcutta tailors name Harman.

Many thanks

Martyn

[Guzzman]

Hi Martyn

I think the first of your buttons has a King's Crown and the second appears to have the Imperial Crown which was often used in the late-Victorian period.

British Indian naval buttons can be very hard to date as they they used the same design from the 1870s until independence in 1947. In fact the post-independence Royal Indian Navy continued to use the same buttons until India became a republic in 1950 and the Royal Indian Navy became the Indian Navy.

The only change in the design in the buttons during that period was the change from the Imperial Crown to the King's Crown.

Although the buttons remained virtually unchanged the British Indian naval forces changed their name several times between the 1870s and 1947 (plus several name changes prior to that date): -

Bombay Marine (1863-77)
Her Majesty's Indian Marine (1877-92)
Royal Indian Marine (1892-1934)
Royal Indian Navy (1934-50)

The use of the word 'Marine' in two of these titles is the reason that Indian naval buttons are often incorrectly identified as Indian 'Mercantile Marine' buttons.

The best way to date these buttons (and therefore assign them to the correctly named organisation) is by the manufacturer's name on the back of the button. Using this method I have been able to confirm that such buttons in my own collection were made between the late-1870s and the 1930s. Plain backed buttons without any manufacturers name and often of a poorer quality finish were generally made in India during the Second World War.

Although I have access to information regarding British button manufacturers there is very little information available re the buttons made in India. I'm therefore unable to confirm the exact date of your Imperial Crown button. I will see if I can date the King's Crown Firmin button for you and get back to you.

Pete

[Martyn123]

Many thanks Pete. Thanks for the info. The first one appears to have a Victorian registration diamond in the design of the back but that was probably left on their for some time. I will see if I can get better pictures

Regards

Martyn

[Guzzman]

I have checked the information I have re the buttons and I can date the buttons slightly more accurately.

The King's Crown button is marked 'Firmin & Sons Ltd. London'. This was used by Firmin in the early-20th century. This fits nicely with the King's Crown and it is therefore probable that it was manufactured for the Royal Indian Marine - though as the design remained unchanged it could have continued to be worn after the Royal Indian Marine became the Royal Indian Navy.

I found a reference to Harmans & Co of Calcutta, India but unfortunately no dates. Due to the design of the crown and it's similarity to buttons in my own collection I would suggest that this button is late-19th century in date and was manufactured for either Her Majesty's Indian Marine or the Royal Indian Marine. Due to the later adoption of the King's Crown on buttons it is unlikely that this button would have been used after the early years of the Edwardian period.

Regards

Pete

[Martyn123]

Many thanks Pete. That's brilliant thanks for all that info. I have taken a few more pics but these are difficult to photograph with my phone.

Kind regards

Martyn