25th Dragoons Bed/Duty plate

[FMT600]

Hello all,

Here we have a very scarce item to the 25th Dragoons, a bed/duty plate, I don't expect that many of these will have survived, I hope you enjoy.

Cheers,

FMT600

[Rob Miller]

That's very interesting, what diameter is the disc with the emblem on it?

It looks very like a button listed in Howard Ripley's "Buttons of the Regular Army 1855-2000" ,

"74. 25th Dragoons, Brass, KC. Small size only noted. Unofficial design, made in India".

Rob

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

That's very interesting, what diameter is the disc with the emblem on it?

It looks very like a button listed in Howard Ripley's "Buttons of the Regular Army 1855-2000" ,

"74. 25th Dragoons, Brass, KC. Small size only noted. Unofficial design, made in India".

Rob

Hello Rob,

I'm sorry I don't have the exact disc measurements as I'm not at home, however the gridding is 1cm/10mm.

I have included front and rear pictures of the unofficial Indian made 25D buttons you refer to, I have seen these in 3 sizes, jacket front/pocket and head dress. All 3 sizes are domed unlike the disc on the plate.

Cheers,

FMT600

[Rob Miller]

Thanks, that's fascinating stuff.

It looks like the disc on your bedplate is larger, perhaps 30mm? so it could be an uncutout collar or cap badge?

And 2 of your buttons seem to have been unknown to Mr Ripley when he published his book, and now I'm wondering if that style of plain backmark can place some other buttons I have as Indian made?

Rob

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Thanks, that's fascinating stuff.

It looks like the disc on your bedplate is larger, perhaps 30mm? so it could be an uncutout collar or cap badge?

And 2 of your buttons seem to have been unknown to Mr Ripley when he published his book, and now I'm wondering if that style of plain backmark can place some other buttons I have as Indian made?

Rob

Rob,

Good luck with identifying your buttons, as for the 25D disk, I think that is all that it is, both the Indian made cap and collar badges were of pretty much the same construction, white metal with brass overlays, the only difference being that the collars are smaller, the badge below is a cap badge.

Cheers,

FMT600

[Marcus H]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Thanks, that's fascinating stuff.

It looks like the disc on your bedplate is larger, perhaps 30mm? so it could be an uncutout collar or cap badge?

Rob

Hi Rob,

I suspect the disc is the larger button "face" that has been manipulated and flattened; to my knowledge, there is no pattern of cap/collar that takes the exact form of the button detail.

Best,

Marcus

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by Marcus H

Hi Rob,

I suspect the disc is the larger button "face" that has been manipulated and flattened; to my knowledge, there is no pattern of cap/collar that takes the exact form of the button detail.

Best,

Marcus

Marcus/Rob

There may be a link between the disc and the Indian made button, I'm not however in a position to compare the two at the moment.

If a link does exist I think it would be visa versa to Marcus's idea in that the button has been manipulated. I think that the disk more likely (the detail is raised and unblemished) could be a stamped out flat former for a button. I am no expert on making military buttons but in basic outline would have thought the process would entail stamping out a flat disc, then bending it/stamping it to shape, fitting the back and turning down the sides of the front to hold the back in place. Rob you seem to be a button man do you know the manufacturing process for such buttons?

Kind Regards,

FMT600

[Cribyn]

Hello

No need to go into too many details here but buttons like those in this thread are not made by stamping the design onto a flat disc and then shaping the disc into a domed button.

Usually a plain domed piece is pre-formed on a power press and then placed between an upper and lower die containing the design. The design is thus stamped onto a ready made domed shell of a button.

The 'button/badge' on the bed plate doesn't look as if it was made from a flattened out button. Probably someone made the discs using the same design as the button.

Very nice bed plate however it was made!

Roger

[Marcus H]

In the book Peter states the bedplate image is to scale, so I've placed a large button and a cap badge either side of the disc picture segment.

However, I would suggest that the best judgement would perhaps be with both such items in hand.

Sorry, I can't upload pictures in threads, but I can in my album? Anyway, follow this link to the pic: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=132040

Best,

Marcus

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello

No need to go into too many details here but buttons like those in this thread are not made by stamping the design onto a flat disc and then shaping the disc into a domed button.

Usually a plain domed piece is pre-formed on a power press and then placed between an upper and lower die containing the design. The design is thus stamped onto a ready made domed shell of a button.

The 'button/badge' on the bed plate doesn't look as if it was made from a flattened out button. Probably someone made the discs using the same design as the button.

Very nice bed plate however it was made!

Roger

Roger,

Many thanks for your input,

As I have said on many an occasion we all have a lot to learn in the world of collecting militaria, you have kindly just enhanced my basic knowledge of button making, and it would seem that things have gone full circle back to my previous post of believing that the disc was simply a disc and nothing more.

Cheers,

FMT600

P.S. Thank you for your comment about the plate.

[Rob Miller]

The crown design is quite different between the button and the bedplate.

But going back to the bedplate its very nice indeed.

Rob

[Marcus H]

I'm just regurgitating this thread, as my initial thought and impression were incorrect; the bedplate is in my hands now.

See link - it would appear the bedplate motif disc is not an adapted 'button' by the looks, hence I can only assume it was a dedicated stamped disc for the use on bedplates, or perhaps even other wares, too; I don't know?

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=140258

Rob, spot-on and good eyes, the differences are apparent now. I should really wear my glasses more often..!


Best,

Marcus