This cant be real? "Shaw Munster" Motto

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Griff,
to be honest, I don't really care!!! Any interest I did have in Mottos was eroded ages ago!

Andy

Ok....

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Here is a test for you ..... can you tell which is the Smith & Wright Ltd Motto and which is the Firmin Motto? (there are 4 different makers of this type of Motto :- Smith & Wright, Firmin, Dowler & Shaw Munster)

I can...

I can't, we (Forum members) can't and you can't. It's all conjecture.

Get Chris Marsh's A/A badge book, it may feature just one motto (maker marked J.R.GAUNT LONDON), but it also has about 450 pages of text which will greatly help you understand how things work in the real world.

Rgds, Thomas.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Chris

Mr Tyler's involvement is interesting ...... the "SM" Motto is that of the old Smith & Wright Ltd Motto (female die) and the "Dowler" Motto is that of Firmin & Sons (the one that looks like a copy of the Smith & Wright Motto). Dowler must have been a sub contractor to Firmin at some stage?

Hi Griff,

Give me an hour and I'll dig something out for you.

Regards

Chris

[GriffMJ]

Thanks Chris...

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

I can't, we (Forum members) can't and you can't. It's all conjecture.

Get Chris Marsh's A/A badge book, it may feature just one motto (maker marked J.R.GAUNT LONDON), but it also has about 450 pages of text which will greatly help you understand how things work in the real world.

Rgds, Thomas.

Hi Thomas,

Yes quite right. Griff, when looking into this collecting game one has to be very careful about 'guessing' what is and what is not fact. To make myself extremely unpopular here on the forum I will say that collectors of British Army cap badges are about ten to fifteen years behind, and I'm being serious now, those of German combat badges of the WWII. Why, because in the last 10 years the German collectors have taken their hobby by the scruff of the neck and have, by rigorous investigation of facts over myth and conjecture, isolated reality from fiction. The quality of literature on German combat badges is now of the highest standard backed by proper research. Therefore, when they comment on a particular badge or its feature the comment is backed up by proper and tedious investigation. These books are expensive but if one buys them as and when the become available they certainly enhance an understanding of what one owns. Its like a big jig-saw puzzle and the German guys have been very good at getting the 70 year old pieces to fit.

So Griff, going back to you Motto badges. If this was my sphere of collecting I would first fully investigate and understand how genuine badges are made. If you don't know this then you can't spot modern fakes from the good pieces. Secondly I would investigate the relationships between companies and see if they used the same pieces e.g. sliders, lugs, metal etc. Thirdly, I would check and see if the different companies used the same dies to make their badges to, again, investigate relationships between companies. Fourthly, I would try and allocate a timeline of events to the three points above.

To do this you need to get all the written literature you can get your hands on and also start looking around institutions like the National Archives, Royal Armouries and all the military museums you can find. However, you need to get into the back room collections and literature not on display and to do this you need to approach the museums management. Its very time consuming and expensive but still enjoyable especially if you have time on the weekends/evenings to do it.

At the end of the day you could end up publishing a definitive guide to Motto badges over time - all up to you...

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Chris

Mr Tyler's involvement is interesting ...... the "SM" Motto is that of the old Smith & Wright Ltd Motto (female die) and the "Dowler" Motto is that of Firmin & Sons (the one that looks like a copy of the Smith & Wright Motto). Dowler must have been a sub contractor to Firmin at some stage?

From page 29 of Chapter 5: The Manufacturers:

...the company also changed names a number of times over its history being known as early as 1875 as Firmin & Sons when it also became a Limited Company. In 1981 Firmin & Sons became Firmin & Sons PLC, followed in 2006 when they became Firmin & Sons Ltd. (7) During the anodised aluminium cap badge manufacturing era the company held Royal Appointments to both Queen Elizabeth II and to the late Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother as button makers. (8) Today the company retains the appointment to The Queen as button maker and also to His Royal Highness, The Duke of Edinburgh as manufacturer of insignia, buttons and accessories. (9) Acquisitions by the company include William Dowler & Sons (who, at the time, owned Smith & Wright Limited) in 1969 and J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited in 1991. (10) (11) (12)...

Now, just to show that I'm not making this up here are the related footnotes to go with the above final paragraph on Firmin & Sons:

7. Company names - As (4)
8. Letter dated 29th April 1963 regarding standardising the distance of shanks on officer’s collar badges to the Under Secretary of State, the War Office and held as item 133A
in file WO 32/16956 at the National Archives, Kew, London.
9. Firmin & Sons Limited, Birmingham http://www.firmin.co.uk/
10. Button and Badge Makers: http://www.oldcopper.org/button_makers.htm
11. Firmin & Sons Ltd.: http://www.firmin.co.uk/history.aspx
12. Letter by J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited giving notice to the Firmin & Sons PLC takeover dated 19th February 1991. See also Firmin & Sons Ltd.: http://www.firmin.co.uk/history.aspx for general history provided by the company.


Hope this helps!

Regards,

Chris

[GriffMJ]

Chris

So my question was originally..... "Dowler must have been a sub contractor to Firmin at some stage?". "Yes" or "No" or "Not known" is all that I was after

Thomas

Show me the front of an AA Motto..... your choice & pic and I can name the maker on the slider.

[fougasse1940]

There are only six different A/A motto manufacturers known.
What about lugged A/A mottoes?

Rgds, Thomas.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

There are only six different A/A motto manufacturers known.
What about lugged A/A mottoes?

Rgds, Thomas.

Thomas

I have a couple of AA looped/lugged.... two different makers (Firmin & Gaunt). Not aware of any others with loops/lugs by makers of the AA Motto ...... there "might" be one by Smith & Wright Ltd (made at the very early start of AA production) that I have not seen yet - if it exists?

* Far right pic shows the Firmin AA looped against the early Firmin AA with slider. You can see where they would have put the loops in the slider version....... and you can see where they would have put the slider in the looped version.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Show me the front of an AA Motto..... your choice & pic and I can name the maker on the slider.

If you'd have Chris's a/A book you could identify them from the shape of the slider...

Rgds, Thomas.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

If you'd have Chris's a/A book you could identify them from the shape of the slider...

Rgds, Thomas.

Excellent........ but hide the slider..... and just show me the motto

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Thomas,

Yes quite right. Griff, when looking into this collecting game one has to be very careful about 'guessing' what is and what is not fact. To make myself extremely unpopular here on the forum I will say that collectors of British Army cap badges are about ten to fifteen years behind, and I'm being serious now, those of German combat badges of the WWII. Why, because in the last 10 years the German collectors have taken their hobby by the scruff of the neck and have, by rigorous investigation of facts over myth and conjecture, isolated reality from fiction. The quality of literature on German combat badges is now of the highest standard backed by proper research. Therefore, when they comment on a particular badge or its feature the comment is backed up by proper and tedious investigation. These books are expensive but if one buys them as and when the become available they certainly enhance an understanding of what one owns. Its like a big jig-saw puzzle and the German guys have been very good at getting the 70 year old pieces to fit.

So Griff, going back to you Motto badges. If this was my sphere of collecting I would first fully investigate and understand how genuine badges are made. If you don't know this then you can't spot modern fakes from the good pieces. Secondly I would investigate the relationships between companies and see if they used the same pieces e.g. sliders, lugs, metal etc. Thirdly, I would check and see if the different companies used the same dies to make their badges to, again, investigate relationships between companies. Fourthly, I would try and allocate a timeline of events to the three points above.

To do this you need to get all the written literature you can get your hands on and also start looking around institutions like the National Archives, Royal Armouries and all the military museums you can find. However, you need to get into the back room collections and literature not on display and to do this you need to approach the museums management. Its very time consuming and expensive but still enjoyable especially if you have time on the weekends/evenings to do it.

At the end of the day you could end up publishing a definitive guide to Motto badges over time - all up to you...

Regards

Chris

Hello Chris

I agree with you 100%, you have put matters in perspective and offered sound advice.
Research is the key, and much more needs to be done.
I would add that IMO many references collectors currently rely on, although very good in their day, are not entirely adequate now, and really need upgrading, but sadly many authors are no longer with us and are therefore unable to do this.
There are also many areas of collecting of which a definitive guide has never even been published, Cavalry Collar dogs for example.
Perhaps we too need to get our 'hobby by the scruff of the neck'?

All the best
Regards
Rob

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

There are only six different A/A motto manufacturers known.

Rgds, Thomas.

1. J R Gaunt
2. Firmin
3. Smith & Wright Ltd
4. Dowler
5. Shaw Munster
6. London Badge & Button Co

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Hello Chris

I agree with you 100%, you have put matters in perspective and offered sound advice.
Research is the key, and much more needs to be done.
I would add that IMO many references collectors currently rely on, although very good in their day, are not entirely adequate now, and really need upgrading, but sadly many authors are no longer with us and are therefore unable to do this.
There are also many areas of collecting of which a definitive guide has never even been published, Cavalry Collar dogs for example.
Perhaps we too need to get our 'hobby by the scruff of the neck'?

All the best
Regards
Rob

Thanks Rob,

Much appreciated.

There is one member on the forum thinking of writing up A/A collar badges so hopefully one day this will be another genre of badges covered in modern day publishing.

Regards

Chris