Westminster Dragoons

[Dr_Evil]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

My father was a WD and all his photos from the 1950s show him with a bullion Royal Crest Beret badge, also bullion in his service cap.

You are right. According to Lawson and Huw-Williams' 'A History of the Westminster Dragoons 1901-1967', the WDs' officers' capbadge was that of a lion rampant on a purple background from 1902 to 1967. A similar badge of a lion rampant on a red background was adopted in 1907 by all general staff officers of the Army. When the WDs reformed as one of the five squadrons of the Royal Yeomanry in 1967, the officers re-adopted that capbadge until in 2006 the RY adopted Princess Alexandra's cypher as the single capbadge for the whole regiment.

Lawson and Huw-Williams give three explanations for the origin of the officers' cap badge. One is a story involving swapping hats with the then Prince of Wales, and is probably apocryphal. The second is that it was adopted because the badge of the London and Westminster Light Horse Volunteers (disbanded in 1829) was that of the crown and lion.

The third, and most likely, is that it was adopted due to the influence of the 1st Royal Dragoons on the WDs at the latter regiment's formation. The lion rampant was worn by all ranks of the 1st Royal Dragoons prior to the capture of the eagle of the French 105th Regiment at the Battle of Waterloo, consequent upon which the eagle was adopted as the officer's capbadge of the regiment. The first commanding officer and adjutant of the Westminster Dragoons and many of the officers were ex-Royals. So it is thought likely that they adopted that part of the dress of their former regiment for themselves.

See page 21 of the PDF linked to here:

http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...0the%20WDs.pdf

As illustrated in the Player's cigarette card image from the 1930s on this page:

http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk..._Calendar.html

And here (albeit on a black background): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Dragoons

[Dr_Evil]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Here is my collection of WD badges - the 1908 all brass variant, the 1937 w/m lugged beret badge and the final s/p (no TY) version worn from 1983 up to 2006. This high quality badge was worn by other ranks and not offrs.

They also wore the RTC/RTR badge between the wars and an a/a badge when part of the Berks and Westminster Dragoons in the 1960s. The WD adopted the black beret of the RTC which they retain to this day.

They are currently wearing the Royal Yeomanry cap badge.

Alan

Officers of the Westminster Dragoons wore the lion rampant cloth capbadge from around 1902 until 2006. Your images show the ORs' badge adopted in 1903. See the splendid fellows pictured on operations in Iraq in 2003, in the document linked to here:

http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...e%20Tigris.pdf

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

Regarding the statement in bold above: officers of the Westminster Dragoons wore the lion rampant cloth capbadge from around 1902 until 2006. Your images show the ORs' badge adopted in 1903. See the splendid fellows pictured on operations in Iraq in 2003, in the document linked to here:

The badge does not look like your description above, looks more like the 'Royal Crest', worn by Colonels and Brigadiers!

Marc

Just read the other thread, however it is not a 'Lion Rampant'.

[Rockape]

Here is the badge: The Lion Statant on the crown

[davec2]

An interesting thread so I will stick my head up to be shot off ??

I have four G.M. versions on lugs ( 3 TY and 1 IY ) and one GM, TY, on a slider, 2 WM TY variants on lugs and 2 silver plated models, no TY or IT on the scrolls !!

Every one was bought from reputable dealers and guaranteed genuine and none were cheap, are they OK or have I been screwed with any of them ??

Dave.

[Dr_Evil]

Originally Posted by Rockape

Here is the badge: The Lion Statant on the crown

Correct - that's the badge I wore as a WD officer. Sorry for the Rampant/Statant confusion - I was quoting from the 'History of the Westminster Dragoons' by Lawson and Huw-Williams. I wouldn't know a Lion Rampant if it sat on my head.

[JON188]

Guys is this pucker? Just obtained it. Not my bag so will be looking at moving it on, but dont want to send a duffer. Putting here will at least show what to watch out for if it isnt right, but it looks ok to me.WESTMINSTER DRAGOONS FRONT.jpg

WD rear.jpg

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

A very interesting photo of the 2nd County of Londons IY...... I didnt know they wore a BiM POWFs collar initially Note also the short helmet fixing for the plume.

Also, the unit's first officers were posted to the WDs from the 1st Royal Dragoons.They brought with them the Royals' then-current cap badge. Thats why the WD Officers wore the bullion Royal Crest until 2007.

[Jelly Terror]

Not the easiest unit to find images of. Here are a few of mine:

[GriffMJ]

2/Lt K R Morgan-Jones, WDs
Late 1950s

* FAA Observers wings (National Service)

[Rockape]

Griff & JT,

Nice photos thanks for uploading.

In the seated photo a shoulder title is visible and seems to substantiate Ray Westlake's observation in regards to 2nd CoLY wearing in this instance T/Y/London. He also mentioned that they may have worn T/Y/County of London. This was a break from the imperial yeomanry shoulder title IY/Westminster Dragoons. He also reported that the 2/2nd CoLY wore WD until 1916.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Hi All

A very interesting photo of the 2nd County of Londons IY...... I didnt know they wore a BiM POWFs collar initially Note also the short helmet fixing for the plume.

Also, the unit's first officers were posted to the WDs from the 1st Royal Dragoons.They brought with them the Royals' then-current cap badge. Thats why the WD Officers wore the bullion Royal Crest until 2007.

I think there is something amiss here - not all is at it seems.

First of all, I do not think the WD did wear POW collar badges; to the best of my knowledge their collars should be the arms of Westminster. Which other cavalry regiments wore POW collars?

WD b.jpg

Secondly, our man's waist belt has a clasp to the 3rd London Rifle Volunteers, with universal pattern rococo ends, circlet inscribed 'London Rifle Volunteers' and bearing a flaming grenade with ‘3’ mounted on the ball. The 3rd London Rifle Volunteers was an infantry regiment (not cavalry), raised in 1861, and becoming the 7th City of London Bn. the London Regiment, at the introduction of the TF in 1908.

3rd LRV Waist Belt Clasp.jpg Clasp.jpg


There is no doubt with regard to the helmet being WD - the photo speaks for itself, which appears to have the pre-1910 purple plume (as opposed to the post-1910 white plume):

WD d.jpg WD c.jpg

What, I wonder, is going on?

Portrait.jpg

Regards,

JT

[Alan O]

JT,

Several cavalry regts wore the PofW feather (3DG, 10th Hussar etc) however looking at his cuffs they are not like any regular dragoon or hussar cuffs I recognise.

[GriffMJ]

Here is a post 1900 WD Officers khaki SD...... if you look at the cuffs you will see the four buttons. Also the detail of the officers dress jacket sleeve...

* Dont forget the WDs were a new Regiment and many of the men from other units would have joined ..... so the 3rd Rifles belt is not out of place. "Mounted Rifles" was the Yeoman in SA.

[Jelly Terror]

Just about legible on the back of the photo is the following:

IMG_8979.jpg

It looks like 'O' (or simply a circle), over 'Purslow', over '6'.