RMF badge with thin slider

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by KLR

Toby, just to clarify, the first 'cap' badges for the FSC specifically had loops. these were discontinued at home in 1903 on the introduction of the Brodrick. (they continued to be worn in India and their badges continued to have loops up to 1914 - described as Indian Pattern badges in CR, and defined in ACD records).
A 'vertical shank' (ie what we now call a slider) was specifically introduced for badges worn on the Brodrick, this was long - about 60mm, because the badge was worn higher up than on the band. the slider was the same length as that found on HPCs for wear with the Universal Headdress Hat (aka slouch hat) and for which a special holder was issued - but I'm digressing.
In 1906 the WO issued instructions that the vertical shank be shortened so that their badges could be worn on the new (peaked) service cap. From this date they were 30 to 40mm (though see below)

You mentioned collar badges worn in the FSC - this is indeed what happened when the FSC was first introduced and before specific 'cap' badges were designed - this issue is dealt with in detail in
Linaker, DDA, 2004, ‘Field [Service] Cap Badges’, Crown Imperial, 113, 27-29.

In many cases the ACD sealed 'collar' badges separately as a 'cap' badge only to be superseded by a new sealing for a 'cap' badge. Thus the first King's Regt badge sealed for wear in the FSC was pattern 4362/1895 which was in fact the horse on scroll collar badge - next year a new 'cap' design was sealed as 4362A/1896 and is the type worn up to 1926.
There are countless similar examples in the ACD records - often accompanied by rubbings.
(there are other complications but I wont' go into those now !)

On the separate issue of slider lengths, I have noted that for the 1926 pattern King's (ie 10042/1926) there are some very long ones - ie about 45mm and, interestingly, often made of copper rather than GM. Actually, I have also seen these on the 11390/1939 pattern 8th Irish Bn King's WM badge.
Most of these badges however have a slider measuring an average of 37mm.

Incidentally, I always measure sliders as full length from 'shoulder' and as the length it projects below the base of the badge - eg 43/17 as below (the cr = crimped)

- The White Horse of Hanover rearing on a torse with alternate twists , in white metal. Below, a scroll inscribed KING’S in ‘Old English’ letters, in gilding metal. Straight hind legs, long tail, £££, plain back, slt curved, slider cr 43/17, 47x44.

but then, that's me being a fanatic as to how I catalogue my collection. My day job is in a museum so I'm used to cataloguing things in great detail - it's the only way to discuss differences, trends, etc etc (though usually on objects much older than cap badges !)
Julian

Julian,

Thank you, this is absolutely brilliant and has clarified some issues for which I am still awaiting a response from Regimental Museums. I enclose a pic of what I believe is either a Broderick cap badgse for the RWF or a FSC badge, as a result of your information I am now not sure which. The RWF were the very last unit (fact) to wear the universal grenade of shoulder title and collar badge fame and I have no evidence that they ever wore this plain little grenade in head dress. Were the thin/long sliders for the Brodercik only or could they have been for a later pattern FSC? Thanks again for your very useful information. I would be grateful if you could confirm the ID of the RWF badge (longer slider) enclosed?

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Julian,

Thank you, this is absolutely brilliant and has clarified some issues for which I am still awaiting a response from Regimental Museums. I enclose a pic of what I believe is either a Broderick cap badgse for the RWF or a FSC badge, as a result of your information I am now not sure which. The RWF were the very last unit (fact) to wear the universal grenade of shoulder title and collar badge fame and I have no evidence that they ever wore this plain little grenade in head dress. Were the thin/long sliders for the Brodercik only or could they have been for a later pattern FSC? Thanks again for your very useful information. I would be grateful if you could confirm the ID of the RWF badge (longer slider) enclosed?

Hi Toby,

Really long thin sliders (there are examples in what is now the depths of the forums dormant threads) were intended for the pugree. Remember that slider length, width, gauge, taper was largely left down to the manufacturer and as such varies widely and I for one would not class a longish slider as present on the smaller 1916 economy RWF as being intended for wear on anything other than the peaked cap as was standard.

Further more the smaller 1916 economy issue has reared its head before on the forum and the Welsh boys who specialize on said regiments (Bantam and 41sth) view it to be a restrike if I remember correctly... don't quote me on that but I am pretty sure that is the same die as the lettering etc appears a lot finer.

Looking at the badge on the left I am unsure about that one as well as I seem to remember Kevin (41st) telling me that the restrike economy RWF had a die flaw running through the letters of a word in the 'ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS' title and yours appears to have a die flaw running through the word 'Royal'... over to Kevin and Bantam.

Cheers,

Luke

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke Halls

Hi Toby,

Really long thin sliders (there are examples in what is now the depths of the forums dormant threads) were intended for the pugree. Remember that slider length, width, gauge, taper was largely left down to the manufacturer and as such varies widely and I for one would not class a longish slider as present on the smaller 1916 economy RWF as being intended for wear on anything other than the peaked cap as was standard.

Further more the smaller 1916 economy issue has reared its head before on the forum and the Welsh boys who specialize on said regiments (Bantam and 41sth) view it to be a restrike if I remember correctly... don't quote me on that but I am pretty sure that is the same die as the lettering etc appears a lot finer.

Looking at the badge on the left I am unsure about that one as well as I seem to remember Kevin (41st) telling me that the restrike economy RWF had a die flaw running through the letters of a word in the 'ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS' title and yours appears to have a die flaw running through the word 'Royal'... over to Kevin and Bantam.

Cheers,

Luke

Thanks Luke. The RWF economy is not mine, although I have a genuine one (at one point I had several and even wore one, temporarily blackened, in Northern Ireland in the days when we wore berets).

I have had the debate with 41st and Bantam about the smaller badge before. I do not believe it is a re-strike, which in itself would have to have been from an original die any way to be 're'produced.

Personally I am utterly convinced that the smaller badges are genuine and am investigating via the Regimental Museum collection whether or not they are for the FSC or Brodrick cap. From what Julian has said they might be for the latter, but I am still researching.

[KLR]

Toby, I agree with Luke, I dom't think that slider of yours is anything other than for wear on a peaked cap. The Bordrick ones are about 60mm and - as rare as hens teeth. I have tracked down the SP card for the 1896 King's and the badge on that has a normal length slider BUT the card itself is annotated Vertical Silder added 1903 and further down the card Vertical Slider Shortened 1906 (I'd have to look up the exact dates but I think the 1903 one is March.)
SO is the slider on the SP card a replacement or was it shortened - the answer is that you can't tell !
For the badges already in wear, either they were all handed in for change centrally and reissued or the battalion armourer did it.
At least one set of makers records (Bent & Parker) that I have been studying also notes changing fasteners and lengths in 1903 and 1906.
I hope the regtl museum has details for you, if not, get yourself down to Kew.
The trouble with my work is that there need to be a few other fanatics out there to provide comparative data.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by KLR

Toby, I agree with Luke, I dom't think that slider of yours is anything other than for wear on a peaked cap. The Bordrick ones are about 60mm and - as rare as hens teeth. I have tracked down the SP card for the 1896 King's and the badge on that has a normal length slider BUT the card itself is annotated Vertical Silder added 1903 and further down the card Vertical Slider Shortened 1906 (I'd have to look up the exact dates but I think the 1903 one is March.)
SO is the slider on the SP card a replacement or was it shortened - the answer is that you can't tell !
For the badges already in wear, either they were all handed in for change centrally and reissued or the battalion armourer did it.
At least one set of makers records (Bent & Parker) that I have been studying also notes changing fasteners and lengths in 1903 and 1906.
I hope the regtl museum has details for you, if not, get yourself down to Kew.
The trouble with my work is that there need to be a few other fanatics out there to provide comparative data.

Thanks Julian, I note your point re slider but there are 3 things to consider in the case of the RWF badge that I have shown. First it is smaller than usual (which might indicate a smaller style of headress, such as the FSC and we have already noted that there were 'special' badges for this head dress - perhaps this was a later, post lugs version). Second the spelling 'Welsh' would appear to date it to a certain period and yet it is categorically not an economy pattern badge in my opinion. Third it is of a single metal, g/m, which would also lend credence that it might be a special badge for a particular style of head dress. We shall see. It is far too well made to be a re-strike and in any case a "re-strike" of what?