The Leinster Regiment Royal Canadians

[Malcolm Davey]

Hi Malc,

Luckly still have pics the dealer sent me in my inbox. It's one of my fave badges... tons of character and patina (any ideas how to get that stain off without taking off the patina btw? someone told me ketchup)

Cheers,

Luke

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by jochim

Hi Malc,

Luckly still have pics the dealer sent me in my inbox. It's one of my fave badges... tons of character and patina (any ideas how to get that stain off without taking off the patina btw? someone told me ketchup)

Cheers,

Luke

Luke i moved this from the other thread.
Your badge is not only different with the swallow tails touching the scroll,but also the coronet on mine is more slender, nice pink stuff at the back of your too.
Would this type of coronet only be found on this variation of the swallow tails touching the scroll??

Cheers
Malc

[Luke H]

Malc,

I've had a compare of your '16 to the BM in Wilkinson and a badge from the same die which I own and it looks prima facae that your all brass my be a striking from that die. Its fairly distinct as the coronet is curved covexly upwards at the bottom and you also notice the rather fat 'fillets' with no texture on which join onto the ich dien scrolls from the coronet's sides.

You're right the coronet on my uncles example is much fatter (in terms of depth) than any other original Leinster I own of have seen as they all seem to have slender coronets. From this I think its likely that my one was produced to be an economy die as I've never seen a BM one of the likes.

Luke

[Luke H]

Hi Chaps,

Thought I'd start this thread as I've heard conflicting stories with regards to the origins of 'curvy' scroll Leinster badges.

I know Gaylor in his book says that this is a war time vairent but as we all know cetain nuggets of knowledge were based on collecting myth and hear say rather than historical truth. I have also heard an emminent dealer say it was just a variation nothing to do with an economy measure but rather after the war being one of the latter dies to go into production.

Personally I'm unsure where I stand as they look IMO a bit cheap and naff which would suggest some early attempt at an economy measure. However, there must have been enough badges one would have thought to cater for all the volunteers as being an Irish regiment it was never of the war time proportions of say the Northumberland Fusiliers or Welsh Regt, indeed I think it only had 7 battalions at peak strength, besides which an economy version was produced for the Leinster and if the whole point of an economy was to negate the necessity of brazing this "curvy" scroll badge doesn't really fulfill that premise.

I was therefore wondering if there is any historical evidence out there be it dated photo's of the guys wearing this type of badge or a paper trail stating who produced this type of badge and more interestingly why?

KLR I hoping you have a historical gem for me

Luke

[Alan O]

Luke,

My assumption was that is was not an economy measure but a war-time sub-contractor using the Welsh die by either mistake or because they lacked the correct one. The scroll themselves are cast rather than dies struck again suggesting a lack of die making facilities.

They are not the best made badges anyway. That was my best guess as to why they exist. I am unaware of any sealed pattern for the welsh feathers badge and no Offrs badge in that style exists to my knowledge.

Alan

May I ask (with apologies) what a 'curvy scroll' is ?

[Luke H]

That's alright David we are all here to lean.

Regular Leinster badges have rather angular scrolls either side of the plumes and coronet which read 'ich dien' on this makers variation the scrolls are curved like a Welsh or Welch regiment badge and a small brass scroll with Leinster enscribed and a the base of the feathers poking thru is braze attached to the bottom.

I'll dig out a pic in a bit... sorry could only find a pic of the back of the badge in question on my computer but I know Alan and John have one.

Regards,

Luke

P.S Alan my thoughts exactly, was just asking to see what the general consensus and hoping John or KLR may have some historical paper work as cast iron proof. cheers

Surely a badge can only be produced for military use if it has passed the MoD (formerly the War Office) appropriations procedure, including the registration of a sealed pattern. It would follow that, if the 'curvy' scroll Leinsters is bona fide, there will be a sealed pattern. Is it always a possibility that it is a copy, perhaps made from a Welsh Regiment die, with the scroll wording altered - as in the case of the copy Tyneside Irish badges made from the Connaught Rangers die. After 45 years of collecting, cataloguing and researching I have come to the view that - no sealed pattern, no official item - whether badge, button or title. The MoD Procurement Executive should hold all Leinster sealed patterns, from which the matter could be settled. I believed that the Moderator has hit the nail firmly on the head with this one.

[Luke H]

Not necessarily, another example I would use is the WW2 variant of the Yorkshire Regiment which has a crown instead of a coronet. Obviously a mistake by a subcontractor/alternate factory whilst making a die.

It stands to reason that if a certain manufacturer only had one die for a certain badge when a large order came in (i.e. war time) that they would try and find some way of fulfilling it despite their shortfall in production at their own factory and this case of the curvy Leinster scrolls seems to fit the bill in all probability.

If you are being a pureist collector I suppose you could discount this type as a manufacturing error in a similar way you could also do the same to the aforementioned Yorkshire, Inneskilling Fusiliers (spelling mistake) even the Gordon Highlanders with 'BY DAND'. As no sealed patterns would exist sanctioning the change to the badge but as they are a rather substancial vairation as opposed to an extra leaf in a laurel on another makers variation collectors do not overlook them quite so readily.

Luke

[John Mulcahy]

I have never found an official reference to the Leinster's curved scroll badge (but I have never seriously looked either) I take the following view of the badge.

It was acknowledged by collectors (such as Gaylor , K&K) who were active in collecting prior to the 1970's before forgery and re-strike badges started to appear as a serious problem. Thus I personally think it is a bona fide variant .

It is a very distinctive shape and should be able to be verified with one who has the time to study photos' pre 1960 copies of the Bulletin, Irish Sword etc.

John

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Just looking at the previous pictured examples and noticed mine is a bit different. ( at the brass scroll and with lugs rather than slider) Good sweat holes etc. What's the opinion?

John

[Alan O]

John,

Yours is the normal sealed badge design and most people would agree that the lugs make it an early pre WW1 badge.

Alan

[dragonz18]

Hi,
attached is a slightly odd Leinster all brass, by Lambourne.
Been mounted on a display board for about 30+ years.
Thoughts on this version ?
Cheers !
Steve

( have used a flash here, but can do more natural light ,if of interest.)

[Alan O]

Steve,

I like it even with the solid bits. Should you wish to dispose of it then let me know.

Alan

[2747andy]

Gentlemen,
has anyone got a Genuine Leinsters Economy or All GM, 1916 issued badge that I can compare to the one shown below?

I got this from a reliable source this week, it is well made but has had a replacement slider fitted. The feature that I am not sure of is the curved coronet? In all other aspects it is exactly the same as the regular Bi metal badge!

Your coments please

Andy