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Old 22-05-12, 01:34 PM
Michael Dorosh Michael Dorosh is offline
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Default 51st Highland Division battalion/division insignia schedule

Gents;
I am trying to confirm the insignia worn by each of the 9 rifle battalions in the period 1944-45.

152 Infantry Brigade
2nd Seaforth Highlanders
5th Seaforth Highlanders
5th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders - Bouchery Vol II p. 85 shows a photo of a flash of Cameron of Erracht tartan, worn over Division flash and one Arm of Service flash.

153 Infantry Brigade
5th Black Watch - see A
1st Gordon Highlanders - ?
5th/7th Gordon Highlanders - Bouchery Vol II p. 54 shows the same insignia as worn by the Gordons in 15 Scottish Division, i.e. a strip of Gordon tartan worn along the shoulder seam, over the formation patach, with two arm of service flashes denoting the middle brigade

154 Infantry Brigade
1st Black Watch - see A
7th Black Watch - see A
7th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders - Bouchery Vol II p. 85 shows the same insignia as worn by the Argylls of 15 Scottish Division - a red and white diced flash over the formation patch, over three arm of service flashes denoting the junior brigade

A. I have seen photos online and in Bouchery of the Black Watch battalions wearing a Government tartan flash in the shape of the regimental cap badge, with either 2 or 3 scarlet arm of service flashes depending on brigade. Was there any other "battalion" insignia to distinguish between them, particularly between 1st and 7th battalions?

B. Did the Seaforths wear the same insignia as that in 15th Scottish Division (i.e. Mackenzie Tartan flash)? Were there battalion distinctions between 2nd and 5th Seaforths? For some reason my notes show the 5th wearing a Government Tartan flash below the formation flash, and 2nd wearing Mackenzie above it, but I don't have a source for this info listed.

C. Likewise, did both battalions of the Gordons wear the same flash? Bouchery has an indistinct shot appearing to show troops of the Gordons in 51st wearing an embroidered/worsted/printed flash with lettering, but it's hard to make out.

Any help anyone can provide would be gratefully accepted.

TIA
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Old 22-05-12, 01:50 PM
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badjez badjez is offline
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Default 51st Highland Div

I'm afraid I cannot provide specific information, but I do know that the regimental Tartan Flashes were worn in lieu of the regimental titles worn by other regiments. It therefore follows that all the battalions of a regiment would wear the same Tartan Flash. The only variations would be for the infantry Arm-of-Service flashes and Formation Signs.

Stephen.
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Old 22-05-12, 03:19 PM
Michael Dorosh Michael Dorosh is offline
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Originally Posted by badjez View Post
It therefore follows that all the battalions of a regiment would wear the same Tartan Flash. The only variations would be for the infantry Arm-of-Service flashes and Formation Signs.

Stephen.
Thanks for the reply. When you have two battalions of the same regiment in the same brigade, as happens more than once here, it seems to defeat the purpose. I don't disagree that it was done - the Black Watch appear to have worn the 'cap badge' shaped tartan swatch universally in their numerous battalions - just curious if there were other identifiers, as there are numerous examples of same elsewhere.

Other regiments in other divisions added 'battalion' insiginia - for example, the Dorsets of 43rd (Wessex) Division added a blue bar below the arm of service flashes to further distinguish battalions of the regiment.

I believe a battalion of the Royal Ulster Rifles distinguished companies (within the battalion) by coloured slip ons on the battle dress shoulder straps while different battalions of The Parachute Regiment used the same system in 6th Airborne Division to distinguish their numerous battalions.

Nothing to say the units in 51st Div followed suit, and I'm loathe to make conclusions based on one or two photos, so thought I would ask.
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Old 22-05-12, 04:57 PM
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Default 51 Highland Div

Michael,

Sorry, I can't help you much further. I can see the dilema but don't know for sure how the regiments got over it. Many battalions adopted unofficial titles, escpecially prior to their official introduction in 1942.

If somebody else on the forum can't help you, perhaps Jon Mills forthcoming book will.

Rgards, Stephen.
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Old 22-05-12, 05:28 PM
Michael Dorosh Michael Dorosh is offline
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Originally Posted by badjez View Post
Michael,

Sorry, I can't help you much further. I can see the dilema but don't know for sure how the regiments got over it. Many battalions adopted unofficial titles, escpecially prior to their official introduction in 1942.

If somebody else on the forum can't help you, perhaps Jon Mills forthcoming book will.

Rgards, Stephen.
Just so there is no confusion, I will reiterate that my interest is the period June 1944 to May 1945.

Who is Jon Mills and what kind of book is he writing? Where can I find out more information?
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Old 22-05-12, 06:15 PM
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Default 51 Highland Div

Michael,

Jon is a forum member (postwarden, cdwarden or similar), and editor of The Formation Sign, the Military Heraldry Society publication. Recently he has been working on a joint project to produce what may well be the definative work on British titles and FS.

Stephen.
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Old 04-06-12, 09:12 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Dorosh View Post
C. Likewise, did both battalions of the Gordons wear the same flash? Bouchery has an indistinct shot appearing to show troops of the Gordons in 51st wearing an embroidered/worsted/printed flash with lettering, but it's hard to make out.

Any help anyone can provide would be gratefully accepted.

TIA
Again Brian Davis p. 109; Gordon Highlanders wore a narrow curved strip of Gordon tartan 7in in length (with a central horizontal yellow line) sewn directly below and in line with the shoulder seam. Just like a shoulder title, except longer.
Never seen anything like embroidered/worsted/printed flash with lettering.

Rgds,

Thomas.
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Old 18-06-12, 08:03 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
Again Brian Davis p. 109; Gordon Highlanders wore a narrow curved strip of Gordon tartan 7in in length (with a central horizontal yellow line) sewn directly below and in line with the shoulder seam. Just like a shoulder title, except longer.
Never seen anything like embroidered/worsted/printed flash with lettering.

Rgds,

Thomas.
The only lettered shoulder title I have seen is probably post-War and has defied identification for decades - its EonF and reads 1st GORDONS. Some say ACF while others believe it be one of those Malayan Emergency period bazaar-made titles to be worn on demob leave by National Servicemen (and others). The narrow strip of tartan was still being worn on BD in the early 1960s.
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Old 17-02-15, 09:20 PM
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MikeRozynski MikeRozynski is offline
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Interesting discussion!

Does anybody got an idea about the tartan flash worn by 1st Gordons? In Bouchery`s book I found a rectangle sample too... And on some original photos as well-but I have no idea if these photos portrays 1st or 5th/7th Battalions?
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Old 16-09-15, 06:46 PM
jon prince jon prince is offline
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Originally Posted by MikeRozynski View Post
Interesting discussion!

Does anybody got an idea about the tartan flash worn by 1st Gordons? In Bouchery`s book I found a rectangle sample too... And on some original photos as well-but I have no idea if these photos portrays 1st or 5th/7th Battalions?
Both images are men of 5/7th Gordon Highlanders, the other Battalions used the full 'shoulder title' long strip of tartan.
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Old 16-09-15, 08:29 PM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Both images are men of 5/7th Gordon Highlanders, the other Battalions used the full 'shoulder title' long strip of tartan.
The 66mm wide tartan flash worn by 5/7 Gordons, 153 Inf Bde had a 10mm wide x 28mm in height strip of red felt superimposed on the tartan, positioned centrally and vertically. We have recently written a seven part article on 51 (H) Inf Div for Militaria magazine. Nos 356, 358 and 361 cover the Division in NW Europe. Mike
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