Royal Australian Artillery button

[fairlie63]

Hello gents -

Has anybody seen this particular button before. It is the same as the post-1930 RAA button in Cossum but does not have the word AUSTRALIA across the map of Australia, and it has a QVC crown.

I first saw it on an RAA forage cap I was asked to identify a month or so ago. I identified the cap as being supplied circa 1903-1916 and 1930-42. I thought the buttons might have been manufactured between 1899-1902 (for either the NSW, Victoria or Queensland Regiments of RAA) for the Field Service Cap and transferred to the forage cap by the original wearer when the latter replaced the FSC in the first decade after Federation.

To my surprise an identical forage cap (not the same one) has turned up on ebay and it appears to have the same sort of buttons.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1912-1918...AAAOSwtGlZIrV8

Don't be fooled by the '1912-1918' date range, the cap badge is by Arendsen and can only date the use of the cap to post 1938 at the earliest. Full dress also ceased to be worn by the Permanent Forces in 1916 and was not reinstated until 1930.

Keith

[badgecollector]

sorry keith
i don't recall ever seeing this button but will look through my collection later in the week.
very interesting and unusual. thanks for raising this
bc

[Cribyn]

Hello Keith

Are you sure that the crown is Victorian? The photo is a little unclear but it looks to me as if it could possibly be the current Queen's crown. Obviously if you have the button to hand or seen it in the flesh you will be in a better position to judge!

The version I have of the button also has 'Australia' across the map.

Roger

[badgecollector]

hey keith
regarding the hat on ebay, how do you know the cap badge is by Arendsen? im not doubting you as i bow to your knowledge on Arty.
the style of the cap does look early?
interesting to note who's selling it. is that Paddy O'brien ex ISW?
bc

[fairlie63]

Hi bc,

The badge will be marked H ARENDSEN MELB behind the gun wheel. It is a very distinctive shape. Arendsen did not begin supplying badges to Aust Army until 1938 at the earliest and it is more likely to be 1939 for the gun badge.

The other type of gun badge prior to the Second World War was manufactured by Stokes and Sons Pty Ltd and is again a very distinctive shape that differs from the Arendsen pattern. Stokes was awarded the contracts to supply these badges in 1930 and at least up to and inclusive of 1937. Later supplies of the Stokes badges were hand stamped with the manufacturers name Stokes and Sons, on the back of the gun barrel.

The gun badge with Consensu Stabiles and Australia in the bottom scrolls was not approved until July 1930. Festberg, Cossum and Jobson are entirely in error regarding Australian artillery badges - so was Bob Gray!

Cribyn, the post war RAA button was the gun and crown worn by the RA.

When I get home from work tonight I will post the authorities for the above.

I assume it is Paddy from ISW.

Keith

[fairlie63]

Okay, bc,
The gun badge was approved for the RAA by Military Board Circular Memorandum No 200 of 10 April 1930 - it was to be the badge of the RA with AUSTRALIA replacing UBIQUE in the top scroll, and CONSENSU STABILES replacing the RA motto in the bottom scrolls. Presumably the bottom centre scroll was to remain blank.

Military Board Circular Memorandum No 337 of 19 June 1930 amended this approval to retain UBIQUE in the upper scroll, and have CONSENSU STABILES and AUSTRALIA in the bottom scrolls.

Tenders for this badge (amongst others) were called for in July 1930 and Military Board Circular Memorandum No 522 of 9 September 1930 notified that Stokes and Sons was the successful tenderer. This manufacturer was subsequently confirmed by MBI Q.127/1931, MBI Q.95/1933, and AAO 270/1937. First badges appear to have been issued to the permanent RAA in NSW by 30 September 1930 in time for their first parade in full dress since it was abolished in the Great War.

H. Arendsen does not appear in Contracts Accepted for the Department of Defence until 1938, and it is not until 4 May 1939 that this firm is notified in Contracts Accepted for Badges, Regimental, for Ordnance Stores. Although this firm made rising sun badges during the war they seem to have been more a manufacturer of buckles and slides, etc.

So the badge being worn on the hat is post 1930 design and 1939 manufacture at the earliest. The hat itself might even have been the type issued post-WW2 on the blue No 1 and No 2 Dress, I'm not really familiar with post-WW2 uniform.

Cribyn,
The only MGO Specification I can find for the post-WW2 RAA button is MGO Spec 997, Appx 26, Issue 3 dated 20 Sep 1957, which is for the anodised aluminium button (QC over gun). Although there was an Issue 2 to this specification dated 13 Oct 1953 it is quite possible that no button was produced before the a/a version because on 10 November 1955 the Director of Personnel Services stated that on no condition should brass buttons be re-introduced (to the Army as a whole). Also the button worn on the forage cap was Ligne 20 - no post-war regimental buttons were produced in this size, all ranks other than Field Marshals and Generals were to wear the AMF button.

I recall my father's greatcoat from the 1948-54 period when he served in the RAA had grey painted KC AMF buttons, and his tunic buttons were copper oxidised KC AMF buttons.

So I don't think it is a QC button. I had asked the owner of the original hat to provide me with the name of the manufacturer from the back of the buttons but I haven't heard back from him.

Keith

[badgecollector]

thanks keith
as usual a very thorough and interesting explanation.
bc