17th NCO Arm Mottos dates ?

[mac mcconnell]

Stephen thanks for the Link I have read that thread a few times very interesting indeed and your lucky to have such a Arm motto. Based on the Firmin style. Also of note is that the loops have been removed in the version pictured in Linaker and Dine.

I don't know when they stopped the practice of the backing plate but seeing as your Arm motto has its hallmark in a different place it may have been one of the first to do so.

Best Mac

[yorkstone]

Mac
Thank you I believe mine is pre backing plate as it is so sturdy but heavy silver hallmarked Patten,
I believe when they produced later light weight mottos the backing plate was required to strengthen them.

I have had many in depth conversations on this item often people getting hot under the collar and a little green eyed.

I found this motto at a small Antique fair some 30 years ago. Sadly no history to the item

Regards

Stephen

[yorkstone]

Mine was made between 1838 and 1890 see attached.

Regards

Stephen

[mac mcconnell]

Thanks for the Info Stephen. All helps in the Arm motto file.
I have been spending a lot of time on this 1838 -1890 that's a big window
of time.
What I do know is that the earlier Arm mottos seem to be based on the William Pimm Motto (1864) Sargent Major Duggans and Sgt Nunnerleys are based on this type held at Regiment. The Firmin seems now to be a later variant (1865)

In the 1982 article in the Regimental 17th/21st magazine The Firmin is thought to be the first there is mention of Duggans but with out hallmark difficult to prove its date. Do any members have an earlier Arm motto by Firmin pre dating 1865 I know of two both date stamped K for 1865. I have as yet not seen any ref to the Firmin Arm Motto before this date in Metal, only a sketch and its different.


This I would believe would close the window some what on your excellent example to 1865 -1890.

Its thought earlier examples were based on the Sabretache Skull which was very big and expensive. Again this would lead me to believe a later date for yours.

I would also be interested if any members have any Arm Mottos pre dating 1864.

The books I am working from are over 20 and 30 years old information is easier to gather now so hopefully we can add to the History and close a few doors.
Stephen I think your Example is a important part of the plot and a variant of the 1865 paten for now until I can find or more information is forth coming.

Would be nice to see them all laid out together one day.

Best Mac

[mac mcconnell]

I know not every ones a Motto fan or cavalry but may be interested so heres a few shots of size difference between the Sabretache ornament thought to be the first Arm motto you can see why they may have wanted to change that particular variant rather large chunk to the Arm.

Best Mac

[Lancer 17]

Hi Mac & Griff

Im back on line just in time to join the discussion.

Mac great photos and thanks for the new information.

There are photos of Nunnery and others wearing Sleeve Mottoes with their medals in the back of Honour the Light Brigade, unfortunately mine is in a box somewhere in the big pile of stuff in my garage. Also dont forget my die cast hollow backed type 1 that has large heavy silver lugs. However its in another box in the garage. Also there is a sleeve motto on a clock here in Aust that Im hoping to get. Its on a presentation plate to an officer in the late 1870's as I remember it, I will try to find the photos and send them to you again if my puter will let me.

I have a large Skull and Bones as seen in your photos which has 3 long split pins on the back which I got from Maj Graham at the museum in 1978 and I believe that this was used on the valise ends rather than the sabretache, also I have photos of this badge being worn on field service helmets in India in the 1880's (I think, they are in the garage to). My sabretache has a heavy die cast unmarked silver badge with 4 screw bolts fittings.

Keep up the good work you two and pleased to rejoin the discussion. And Mac you can never have to much of a good thing.

Regards

Phil.

[GriffMJ]

Good to see you back Phil.... I am just droooooling over that early 17thL Arm motto that Mac has found. Thats a real Hens tooth if ever there was one!

Take a look at my "named" 1950s Gaunt Motto in my 2017 Album. Mac managed to find the owner of it in one of the old Regimental mags

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

I know not every ones a Motto fan or cavalry but may be interested so heres a few shots of size difference between the Sabretache ornament thought to be the first Arm motto you can see why they may have wanted to change that particular variant rather large chunk to the Arm.

Best Mac

They are quality items, nice to see.
Andy

[Lancer 17]

G'day Guys

Sorry it was late last night and I couldn't see clearly, but I do have my Honour the Light Brigade, but I also know that I have been through this one previously, but no natter here goes again.

The following 3 gentlemen are shown in Honour etc wearing their Sleeve Mottoes.

1 Cpl James Nunnerley
Enlisted 1847
Rode in the Charge 25th Oct 1854.
Promoted to Sergeant 26 . 10. 1854
Discharged 1857
Died1905
Medals held by the museum.

2 Private Peter Marsh,
Enlisted 1849 / 50.
Charged on 25.10.1854.
Corporal 1855
To 8th Hussars 25.4.1856

3 Pte James Mustard
Enlisted 3 LD 1850
Transferred to 17th Lancers Dec 1852.
Slightly wounded in the charge 25.10.1854.
To Scutari 29.10.1854
To England 26.2.1855
Became Sergeant - Master tailor (no date)
Discharged 1865
Also served in the Indian Mutiny
He was the last 17th Lancers survivor of the Charge
He attended and sat in the street during the coronation of King George 5th
Died1916

If we look at all 3 of these good men we can see that they all were either a Corporal or Sergeant in the mid to late 1850's and Nunnerley discharged in 1857 Marsh became a Corporal in 1855 and transferred out in 1856 and Mustard became a Sergeant post 1855 and was discharged 10 years later.

This would suggest that the Sleeve Motto was available immediately post Crimea in 1855 and prior to Marsh's transfer out in April 1856 and also prior to the regiment sailing to India for the Mutiny in 1857.This would seem to therefore limit the first issue to the period post Crimea and prior to April 1856.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

[mac mcconnell]

Great to see you back in the fold Phil.

Thanks for some more meat to the thread I am trying to Box off Arm mottos and their types all this info is most helpful. I will be off soon to the Museum to have another good look at Nunnerleys Arm motto with Mick I want to know if its hallmarked at all.

I also have a Old Comrades weekend coming up in June the messes have some wonderful items these days on display.

Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Well while boxing off the beginning of Arm mottos at the other end I still have a way to go. I have been lucky to get an early Lamm bullion Chadd these werer the first ones worn when the Regiment changed to cloth on blues and Mess dress in 1952.

There are variants and this is what I am trying to sort out next.

Top row 1900 -1993 (17th and 17th/21st Lancers

Middle row 1952 - 1993 17th/21st Lancers

Bottom row 1993 2015 The Queens Royal Lancers .

The two metal Arm mottos were never officially accepted the first one was worn by the Provo for a short time on a Brassard but was unpopular as the Lance pennons got caught on stuff. The 2nd raised its head around 1999 but was dropped in favor of the Bullion variant a few were made and ended up on toast racks in the Mess ,but it was never worn.

[Mike H]

Mac,the bottom right hand looks like something from a horror film . Chad appears to be cackling .

[mac mcconnell]

Its a latter QRL the first red backed one is the initial issue that got withdrawn its much darker and had no loops. there's four or five makers variant's.

Best Mac

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

Well while boxing off the beginning of Arm mottos at the other end I still have a way to go. I have been lucky to get an early Lamm bullion Chadd these werer the first ones worn when the Regiment changed to cloth on blues and Mess dress in 1952.

There are variants and this is what I am trying to sort out next.

Top row 1900 -1993 (17th and 17th/21st Lancers

Middle row 1952 - 1993 17th/21st Lancers

Bottom row 1993 2015 The Queens Royal Lancers .

The two metal Arm mottos were never officially accepted the first one was worn by the Provo for a short time on a Brassard but was unpopular as the Lance pennons got caught on stuff. The 2nd raised its head around 1999 but was dropped in favor of the Bullion variant a few were made and ended up on toast racks in the Mess ,but it was never worn.

Hey Mac

That's a great collection. I will get all of mine together and do them in one photo and email it to you. Thanks for sharing mate.

regards

Phil.

[mac mcconnell]

Only part of it mate looking forward to seeing your stuff

Mac