Seaforth "L" badges

[Voltigeur]

David, BRAVO, nice arrangement. A question too. Why the Seaforth Highlanders badge with cypher. I was told it was used in Canada only.
Jo

[DavidS]

For Bill, the backings are not original. It's a bit of a whim on my part, as from the questions I asked on Canuck way back, I don't think backings were used in the field. However, I wanted a bit of colour on the boards, especially for blackened badges like the rifle regiments, so they wouldn't get lost on the black felt. I've used examples from badges with actual backings I've seen, hence the 'centre only' in the North Shore badge.

As for the brass 48th badge, using this one was from both a personal and historical preference. I got this badge along with a few other 1st and 5th Divs (GGHG, Vandoos, Loyal Edmonton and a couple of others) from a fellow in England whose father was in the British army in North Africa in '43/'44. These were all badges he had traded for while there (my guess being with Canadian soldiers having been sent back from Italy/Sicily to the Canadian hospitals there), so they all have a real connection for me to actual individuals who were in theatre, even if I don't have any names.

The Seaforth cipher badge is, as I understand it, the official issue badge which was wholly unpopular and universally loathed by the Seaforths. I've read that they refused to wear it, or would break the Lovat cipher out of it, but I have not heard that it was used only in Canada. Here's a link that has a photo of one cipher badge worn 'in theatre' http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/seaforth_highlanders.htm

[Voltigeur]

David, here is an extract from a letter from C.Brooker sent to me in 1995 on the Seaforth Badge (M109a) ".... The only members of this regiment with any insignia (M109a) being those who had been in the Regiment during the Militia period of the 1920's-1930's probably no more than 150 men, and many of these were too old to go overseas, so when the regiment was mobilized as an active battalion of the CASF they received authorization to recruit up to 1000 troops but there was precious little in the way of uniforms or any other equipment for them, thus the new recruits were sent overseas with only the "CANADA" badge.Pipers and NCO'S would have retained their M109a badges. The rest of the regiment adopted the "imperial" pattern cap badges after their arrival in England".

From the regimental history (Reg.Roy,The Seaforths Highlanders of Canada,1969???). ".... One issue from the Quartermaster Stores in January (1940) which made everyone in the unit happy was the balmoral bonnet. Another small but welcome item was the issue of the "imperial" cap badge with a square of MacKenzie tartan to set it off ".

As for the book on the 8th PLNB Hussars it is,The Pictural History of the 8th Canadian Hussars by E.D.Crook and J.K. Marteinson.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give you all the info that I had on these two subjects. Just hoping this will helps since nothing beats a paper proof.

Regards
Jo

[Dwayne H]

Hi Bill,

I agree that the subject has slipped a bit...I have some documents showing that the Seaforth's badge without the cornet was not authorized for wear by the unit....but I'll wait until the thread has been added in the infantry section.

Dwayne

[Dwayne H]

A letter dated mid 1945 indicating that there was never any official authorization for the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada to wear the "Imperial" design cap badge.

I have similar documentation as it pertains to the VIII Recce cap badge... it too was never officially authorized.

Dwayne

[Michael Reintjes]

...Here is an example of the badge worn in Italy....this exaple is a former Imperial badge with the L and coronet clipped out and sewn to the glen..I,ve seen at least 5 or 6 examples of this and even saw one for sale at the last Burlington show...

[GregN]

Hi Guys, attached is another example of the "L" Seaforths modified badge on a glengarry. Note that the badge is sewn on and that there is a leather rim around the base of the glen. I'm told that the leather is consistant with militia era glengarrys. Another detail is that the top of the glen is sewn shut so that it does not show the red toorie when it is worn.

Cheers,

Greg

[Pylon1357]

If I am following this correctly, the badge I have on display for the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, for the Second World War, with the "L" and crown is incorrect?

I always get confused with in regards to the Seaforth Badges shown above and the Pictou Highlanders. I never seem to see them side by side.

[DavidS]

I wrote Colin Stevens, curator of the Seaforth's museum, and here is his reply:

"I am once again the Curator of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Regimental Museum which I started in 1972.

"Simply put:

"Solid silver badge with Coronet and "L" is for Officers and RSM. (usually 4 piece, occasionally 3 piece and rarely 1 piece)

"Sgts and WOS wear it without the coronet and L. (2 piece - motto and stag's head)

"Other ranks likewise but flat whitemetal badge.

"The flat whitemetal badge with coronet and "L" is "official" Ottawa one (as usual, they did not consult the end user) and regiment refused to wear "That damned thing". A few were worn due to shortages of proper badges. Some ORs cut out L and coronet. One or more officers wore them in 1970s when we were desperately short of officer's cap badges."

So, who has a spare 3-piece KC Seaforth's officer's badge?

[GregN]

David, the easiest way to aquire a 3 piece sterling officers issue Seaforths badge is to buy one off epay via the ex regimental jeweller. In the old days (5 years ago) , this badge was 3-400 bucks for a sterling one. It is much less expensive now. In most cases no one cared if it was worn in WW2 for later, just that it was sterling. Earlier badge "might" also be maker marked. Canadian, earlier issues might be marked O B Allen. There is also a distinct earlier style to this badge. So where does this all lead?

O B Allen marked badges are worth more and there are several styles that can be associated with specific times - CEF, militia, WW2 and post-war. UK made badges were worn as well so officers pattern badges might not be sterling or hallmarked or just marked with a "S". Jewellers, official or otherwise have had a heyday with this badge and depending on the skill of the jeweller, have had some success in manufacturing it.

Keep in mind that the badge is 3 dimensional, the head in one piece, the two antlers are welded to the head (you should be able to see where the welds are in tarnished examples) and then the tines are also sepparately welded. You should be able to see the work involved to make the badge.

As I'm on holidays right now I can't show you the versions that I have but as soon as I'm back I will under a separate post. If any other collector wants to start the post, go for it and I'll add to it when back. Suffice to say, there are lots of variations in style, hallmarks, maker marks etc. The easy way is still the epay way and price being cheaper than waiting for a badge with provaneace.

Greg

[Phillip Herring]

I have also posted this in "Seaforth Part 2"

Here is the 1923 General Order authorizing the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada badges. It is an amendment to the existing dress regulations. Please note that the General Orders, when authorizing badges, took a format that described the OFFICERS' badges. The OTHER RANKS' badges would usually be described as "...to be of the same design as for Officers but to be made of (brass/white metal etc).

GO 111/1923 15th July, 1923

Pages 62 and 63 Insert:-

The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada”.

Badges as described hereunder are authorized:-

CAP BADGE

In silver, a stag’s head, with the letter “L” and a coronet, set between the antlers, the whole resting on a scroll bearing the Gaelic motto “CUILDRICH’N RIGH”.

COLLAR BADGE

In gilt, a Cougar, standing.
H.Q. 7-115-20 H.Q. 1961-26 P.C. 1249 of 10-7-23

This explains why the one piece "CORONET and L" badge exists. It was the badge that was authorized to be worn, hence it is the badge that the government paid for. It was not, however, the badge that was worn by the Imperial Seaforths (or the 231st Battalion CEF) and according to RH Roy's History of the Seaforth's, the Imperial badges were a gift from THE SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS.

[sstaffords]

Hello there,

Here a photograph taken in Holland in april 1945, watch the the right man's capbadge.....
Alex