H.A.C. infantry white metal

[BILL DUGGAN]

I bought this badge several years ago. I have just noticed that there is no mention of a white metal version of this badge in Kipling & King.
I have a good brass version of the same badge which shows signs of wear from polishing.
Could this white metal (steel) version be special version ? (band or summat). I just want to check before I sling it.
Any comments, no matter how harsh, will be welcome.

[johnG]

Please do not bin that white metal HAC badge. If it is no use to you I would be delighted to have it.

This is the background to it.
When the Infantry Battalion was re-formed in 1947 it wore a brass cap badge and brass buttons. The cap badge was the HAC grenade but the buttons were identical to Grenadier Guards, i.e. The Imperial Crown over the Royal Cypher reversed and interlaced, over a Flaming Grenade. All in brass.

At the time of the the Coronation in 1953 they reverted to their old pre-war custom of wearing brass where the Grenadier Guards wore white metal, and vice versa, and so cap badge and buttons became white metal. How long it was in use for I do not know.

I was issued with a white metal Infantry Battalion badge in 1953 and still have it, but in order to fit it into a display in the 1880's I cut the slider very short - something I have since regretted.

I lost touch with the HAC in 1956, and it was not until 2004 I caught up with the new gilded badge. When they adopted that I do not know, and would be glad if anybody can tell me.

[Phil2M]

I have one of these white metal HACs. I was under the impression it was a restrike too. I will post pictures this evening.

Phil

[BILL DUGGAN]

Well I am extremely grateful for that inside information of H.A.C. recent history. I must put a visit to the H.A.C. museum on my itinary.

Thank you very much. I will put the badge back in it's display frame.

[johnG]

Hi Phil, and Bill,

I do not know how long the white metal cap badge was in use by the Infantry Battalion of the HAC.
I know it was introduced in time for the 1953 coronation, but how long it was in use for after that I do not know. I took to wearing a Gold Serjeant's cap badge soon after that, and cannot remember if the white metal badge was still being worn when I left the battalion in 1956 - I think it was.
If in use for a relatively short period then I assume the original ones would be in short supply, and would that perhaps make it a badge worth producing copies of?

Regards

johnG

Originally Posted by johnG

Hi Phil, and Bill,

I do not know how long the white metal cap badge was in use by the Infantry Battalion of the HAC...

John,

I do not have a definitive answer for the demise of this badge, but it would appear that the beginning of the end was 1969. This direct quote from Gaylor:

'In 1954 badge reverted to w/m, in the tradition of the old Volunteers, and serjeants had a brass monogram on theirs. The badge had always been difficult to keep in the beret while on training, and in 1969, the Regiment had embroidered badges made for wear by other ranks, in this headdress only.'

So although this was for wear in the beret only, it looks as though this was the first time the w/m badge had been supplanted.

Regards,

Peter

[johnG]

Thanks for that info PJ.......'Difficult to keep in ther beret'. Yes I can vouch for that.

We were on a training exercise with, I think it was 52 RTR, a TA tank unit then based at Clapham Junction, who if I remember rightly were later converted to a Royal Artillery unit. Anyway, we were at Cookham, Surrey, and were required to clamber onto the tanks, in the process of which a cap badge fell out, somehow got into the workings of the tank and stuffed up the turret rotating. As a result we were ordered to remove badges from berets.

Putting a tank out of action with a cap badge was all in a day's work, to match with seeing-off a light aircraft with bows and arrows on Salisbury Plain. We got fed up with firing blanks at it and not being credited with a hit, so - as The Times put it - we 'reverted to the art of toxophilly'

johnG

Originally Posted by johnG

Thanks for that info PJ.......'Difficult to keep in ther beret'. Yes I can vouch for that.

We were on a training exercise with, I think it was 52 RTR, a TA tank unit then based at Clapham Junction, who if I remember rightly were later converted to a Royal Artillery unit. Anyway, we were at Cookham, Surrey, and were required to clamber onto the tanks, in the process of which a cap badge fell out, somehow got into the workings of the tank and stuffed up the turret rotating. As a result we were ordered to remove badges from berets.

Putting a tank out of action with a cap badge was all in a day's work, to match with seeing-off a light aircraft with bows and arrows on Salisbury Plain. We got fed up with firing blanks at it and not being credited with a hit, so - as The Times put it - we 'reverted to the art of toxophilly'

johnG

John,

I don't suppose you happen to have a copy of that particular edition of The Times?

PJ

[Neil M.ex14/20H.MAN A.C.F]

Hi all
According to Colonal Hodges excelent book British Army Badges. It is worn today as a private purchase instead of the silver annodised one.

[johnG]

Sorry PJ, I do not have a copy, and wonder if it would be possible to trace the copy in the archives. I think the incident happened during the first two weeks of September 1954 and was reported in The Times within a couple of days.

I am sure the men involved would have been a credit to the Finsbury Archers, or the Toxophilite Society
Regards,
John

[Phil2M]

Hi

I am always surprised at finding so many 'common' badges that have been faked, so it would not surprise me in the least if somebody was restriking these HAC badges, especially as they are being made for legitimate private purchase too.

What happened to the 'tank buster' badge? that would be a nice one to have in a collection wth the story behind it.

This isn't the first time I have read the story of the archery, I wonder where I have read it before, it couldn't have been in The Times because it was before I was born? I will ask my brother in law about the story as he works for News International and may have access to their archives to send me a digital copy.

I have attached some pictures of my badge for comparison, please let me know what you think, if you want to make an offer I would always consider it. Its a bit outside of my collecting field and the badge fund can always do with topping up

Regards
Phil

[Phil2M]

I have just noticed that both of our badges appear to have the same small bump in the flames, circled in red. I hope you don't mind me using your picture to illustrate?

Any ideas?

Phil

[Phil2M]

Second time lucky!

Such bumps are frequntly referred to as 'bubble faults' and considered to be indicatve of a 'bad' badge.

I cannot say whether or not the bumps on the two badges shown in this thread are bubble faults, but the examples I have seen with these imperfections usually have more than one.

PJ

[Phil2M]

Interesting. I have learnt my first thing of the day. I have never heard that term before. These badge's bubble faults seem to be in identical positions and my badge, definately, only has the one. Does this suggest that they were both made in the same die?

Thanks
Phil