"Restrikes From Original Dies"

[Alan O]

Good I am glad that's clear. As for identifying them then my thoughts are in post 17.

[btns]

Quoting Mr. M.F. from the B.Q. in London:
When Firmins closed down their factory in London they packed their dies in boxes and sent them by van to Birmingham. Upon arrival they found out that the boxes had collapsed and the dies were in a pile on the floor. The dies were destroyed.

My own project:
Question to an active manufacturer:
Did you purchase the dies from a former competitor when they closed down 60 years ago?
Answer: We do not know, but we never throw out dies. If we did buy them then we have them. You are welcome to come over and search for them.
Outcome: found.

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

We have all used the term "Restrike", (me too!) when pointing out that a badge is not the genuine article, when we should have said Reproduction (fake or copy).

Andy,

I think that is is nub of the issue - the imprecise use of terminology - and I agree with you entirely.

If I am following your line correctly are you saying that a "re-strike" from an original die using the same gauge and metal composition as the original badge, such as a Gaunt B'Ham, could be considered a genuine badge despite it being produced after a unit was disbanded? If not, why not - other than the time of production?

I guess it all hinges on the criteria one accepts for the classification of genuine, and in this people will have our own views.

Cheers
Chris

[KLR]

Two threads are beginning to be conflated - so I've just added a comment on the Jennens thread in 'General Topics' !

[Neibelungen]

From visiting Firmin's shop floor and other manufacturing companies in birmingham etc, dies and moulds can be kept for decades, often with no purpose or motive. For the most part, in my experience, dies are generally paid for by the comissioning company, rather than the manufacturer and hence usually retained at the manufacturer, but are not there property, so end up being stored for long periods.
At some point a shop floor clearout or company reorganisation will take place and these dies get moved about or sold off for the scrap metal value

Badge manufacturers are not collectors or achivists, and rarely will produce something that is a speculative product for them to market. They aren't in the business of selling things, but making to commissions. It's simply not viable for them to hold hundreds of made up badges (and the associated labour and material costs) in hope somebody will buy them.
They hold the dies in case a regiment or military tailor needs to place an order, but with badges and button designs changing over time, the dies end up stored out the way, forgotten or discarded into storage (broken or worn)

Dies themselves are only a tool and could be made fairly easily off a hobbing process. So the hob (master) is the valued item as such, the die itself is a tool made off the hob and can be scrapped once worn or damaged.

Old Dies (to a manufacturer) only have the value of the scrap steel in them, so are cleared out for scrap when they become a space problem. A few probably end up in auction, collectors and probably a few individuals in the 70's onwards who saw a market and aquired them.

[btns]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

...
Dies themselves are only a tool and could be made fairly easily off a hobbing process. So the hob (master) is the valued item as such, the die itself is a tool made off the hob and can be scrapped once worn or damaged.

Old Dies (to a manufacturer) only have the value of the scrap steel in them, so are cleared out for scrap when they become a space problem. ...

Neibelungen,
May I ask when hobbing became a common practice in Birmingham for making dies?
regards,

[magpie]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Having dipped a toe into this subject of post 1890's cap badges on other threads, could anyone please show me what they believe to be a "Restrike from an Original Die"?

I accept that some Gaunt B'Ham marked badges may have been "Restrikes" but does anyone have any others?

Thanks in advance!

Andy

I take it this is what you want to see, all 4 badges that seem to come from the same die, the 2 bottom ones have no valve and the bottom right has spokes voided up to hub.

[wardog]

If they are of no value and you don't want the bottom 2... Or am I missing something? Regards, Paul.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by magpie

I take it this is what you want to see, all 4 badges that seem to come from the same die, the 2 bottom ones have no valve and the bottom right has spokes voided up to hub.

The top two look fake, the bottom two are 100% fine and yes I'd have them too!

Andy

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by wardog

If they are of no value and you don't want the bottom 2... Or am I missing something? Regards, Paul.

I think he is saying the top two have a inner tube valve just under the crown?

[magpie]

They are the same badge with 4 different sliders, 3 different types of void in the wheel and thats what ruins the 2 bottom ones for me personally but are the 2 top restrikes of the bottom 2 ? or are they all fake? which then puts a question mark against the F E WOODWARD.
Andy

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Oh, and thanks for the copy invoice I showed by the way, I have yet to obtain the complete file WO/72/18075 RAOC Badges 1946-1949 and its predecessor/successor files from the NA but this referance is a good starting point

Mike, you can ask them to print and post it for you. I had to do a bit of this a few years back - might cost a few bob though.

Regards

Chris

[2747andy]

Andy,
you need to get your eyes re-zeroed! The top two are fake, the bottom two are not, there are subtle differences, look at the crown detail in particular from the rear! The Woodward badge is probably worth IRO £35 so don't do anything drastic with it!

Andy

[Phil2M]

The bottom right looks different to me, the rifle slings have a smaller void? I could be wrong.

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

When doing my research re: A/A badges I did get in contact with Portsmouth Grammar School re: their A/A CCF badge.

Robert Smith, School Staff Instructor (SSI) of the Tri-Services Portsmouth Grammar School CCF, informed the author, on 19th May 2009, that when he took over the school SSI position on 12th August 2007, that the CCF Army section were wearing cloth cap badges as was the trend at the time. The officers, however, were wearing the last of the metal cap badges (Author: presumed to be the anodised aluminium version). He tried unsuccessfully to trace the die set to re-instate the metal cap badge for the Army section. He sent one of the metal badges to Firmin and Co who created a new die set to make ‘New Metal’ badges (Author: a ‘New Metal’ version is shown in Chapter 13 - Packaging, and was kindly supplied by Mr Smith himself). The new die set remains licenced to Portsmouth Grammar School but is currently held by Firmin & Sons.

Although this info relates to a very modern 'New Metal' item it may be of interest as it shows that Firmin currently holds the die.

Regards

Chris