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#1
02-02-13, 06:27 PM
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"Restrikes From Original Dies"
Having dipped a toe into this subject of post 1890's cap badges on other threads, could anyone please show me what they believe to be a "Restrike from an Original Die"?
I accept that some Gaunt B'Ham marked badges may have been "Restrikes" but does anyone have any others? Thanks in advance! Andy 
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#2
02-02-13, 06:44 PM
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Hi Andy,
I recall a thread some time ago that concerned HAC badges and small 'lumps' for want of a better word that appeared on examples that were though to be suspect. It was stated if I recall correctly that these lumps / bubbles were caused by minor defects in the dies due to them being worn. I think it was accepted that these worn dies had been put to use to produce restrikes, hence the discussion. I have avoided joining the disussion going on in your other thread, the only thing that I would care to comment on is your statement that the manufacturers did not retain the old dies when they were finished with. I have worked in light engineering enviroments and would not be surprised if old dies were kicking around for many years in a badge making establishment. As for business sense in this regard, I have also to disagree, old patterns and the hardware for the manufacture of obsolete items being held does make perfect business sense, you never know when it will come in hand, Andy! Also I have seen old dies or parts of offered for sale on Ebay on more than one occasion. There was also once a post from a member who remembered seeing such items in the dereclict buildings of a defunct badge maker. Just my view from what I have gathered from the forum in past threads. Regards Ry
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#3
02-02-13, 06:55 PM
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Ry,
I agree in some degree, but not that dies would have been kept long term once they became obsolete! Why would they?  The odd die does show up and many Forum member might have the odd part! But to manufacture badges on even a small scale you would need both parts of an unworn die, the press, the sheet metal, the fixings the means to put them together... shall I go on? Manufacturers used to be under contract to the MOD or WD whatever they were at the time, only in recent years have manufacturers supplied badges to the collectors market! I think there will be very few "Restrikes" offered up in response to this thread? Andy
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#4
02-02-13, 07:07 PM
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Just a quick comment on engineers and toolmaker's workshops etc and how the dies could get into circulation. I know that my step dad was a RN and MN engineer officer and later same in RNXS, he was also a toolmaker / engineer in civvie street, for his whole life, he only recently retired. As was his dad after leaving the RE in the 40s.
They never threw anything away, Russell always said that anything and everything could be adapted for a different purpose or reused. Anything he had like specialist moulds or dies that he had made, he was proud of them and kept them as sentimental. The die makers at the factories may well have had the same attitude, when they died the family may well have sold them on. Phil
__________________
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
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#5
02-02-13, 07:24 PM
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Hi again Andy,
I don't wish to go round in circles here mate but I speak from experience albeit admittedly indirect to the manufacture of badges. In answer to your 'Why would they': I have in the past been employed in clearing engineering and manufacturing plants including Gov't munitions installations prior to their demolition and the stuff that we used pull out of these places had to be seen to be believed. It seems that even when something of this nature was no longer in use that the mindset was, 'it's been paid for so it doesn't get ditched' and also as I stated before 'you never know when it will come in handy'. The Civvy mentality of days gone by I suppose. (That said, it also applies to the forces, as I recall from the cupboards full of old rubbish that we used to keep hold of for the sake of it in BAOR during my time, all highly valued military collectables now of course)! The process I describe above is probably where these old dies that turn up come from. Also would it not be impossible that knowing that there was a collector's market for Military badges going back to the year dot (Fox Restrikes) that it might cross the mind of the management to see a pontential future use for the dies for the collectors market, whether this actually came about or not in reality. I accept that many of the badges that we see on a regular basis described as restrikes are indeed not as described and that in the main they come from purpose made 'REPRO' dies, whether made for use by recognised badge makers for regimental museums or back street fakers and we have had a good explanation of the process for making such dies from a member in fairly recent times. It has been a long held belief of mine that in certain cases that some makers have purposely incorporated obvious flaws in their 'REPRO' badges that are easy to spot if one is familiar with an original. For example QCs on the circlets on KC badges and extra voids on some badges. I don't believe that all that does not glitter is necessarily designed to deceive. All I can say really and only my opinion gained from what I have experienced. Ry
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#6
02-02-13, 07:31 PM
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Andy, there is a post somewhere referring to a retired RAOC officer acquiring original dies in the late 60s and selling badges made from them. He advertised in Soldier Magazine and I think Exchange & Mart. The address was J A Morrison, Thurnby Leicestershire.
Found it http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...light=Morrison
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest." Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 02-02-13 at 07:44 PM.
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#7
02-02-13, 07:33 PM
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I would hazard the comment that the dies were probably more expensive to make and a lot more work, than the badges themselves?
__________________
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
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#8
02-02-13, 07:34 PM
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With regard to the disposal of redundant badge dies, I would imagine that ( ignoring the value of them to produce further badges for collectors),their intrinsic value would be that of a couple of pounds weight of scrap steel. Hardly worth the cost of trying to find a puchaser.
P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” Last edited by Peter Brydon; 02-02-13 at 07:47 PM.
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#9
02-02-13, 07:44 PM
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__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#10
02-02-13, 07:52 PM
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The attached is from"Militaria Collector" August/September 1970.
P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )”
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#11
02-02-13, 09:47 PM
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I have two female / lower dies. One of them appears hardly worn and very crisp. Curiously I have two badges that fit exactly - with different names on the sliders ! They are (were) the two top British badge manufacturers. I had noticed that the badges themselves were almost identical and it would appear that they shared dies - who they belonged to I'm not yet certain !
The other die (also, of course, from the KLR family) is much more worn, though a less common badge ! Anyway, I can guarantee that they'll never be used for anything dubious and, as Andy points out, any faker would need the male / upper die too ! (Just for interest I might note that as I was cataloguing Roman coins yesterday I came across a (contemporary) fake made from an upper die belonging to one type and the lower die from another type - not terribly rare in numismatics !)
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#12
02-02-13, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
__________________
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
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#13
02-02-13, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Good to hear of your dies and very interesting points your comparisons raise. I know this boils down to an assumption only but it says to me that the badge manufacturers outsourced the manufacture of the badge dies, this would make sense given what I would guess to be the heavier scale of engineering required for this as opposed to what I would think an insignia works would be set up for. Therefore it is possible that whoever cast these dies supplied them to multiple badge makers. Another possiblity would be that a major badge production company sub-contracted badge production from any given contract to smaller companies and supplied the dies to them from a central supply again originally outsourced. There was certainly no lack of engineering firms that would be able to make these dies as opposed to having to tool up for production of what would have been fairly small runs of a given die. Food for thought maybe? Ry
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#14
02-02-13, 10:40 PM
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Original Reverse Hardened Dies for Military Badges (used to produce working dies) were paid for in part at least by the MoD
This is an invoice for sample badges for approval.. Badge was 1949 Pattarn RAOC 'Slim Tonanti' in Officers Gilt/Silver and Other Ranks GM/Plate I would love an RAOC badge die or Sealed Pattern examples for that matter for my collection, as sadly I have neither.. Last edited by Mike_2817; 02-02-13 at 10:55 PM.
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#15
02-02-13, 10:49 PM
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