Dorset Regiment Cap Badge

[BILL DUGGAN]

I find this string of interest.
I have a pile of old 'Soldier' magazines from the fifties and one readers letter complains of an R.S.M. of his regiment that would 'go ballistic' if the word Lincoln was used in place of Lincolnshire.
I can only presume that the word Dorset would have upset a few and made the tashes stand on end.

[Jim Maclean]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I find this string of interest.
I have a pile of old 'Soldier' magazines from the fifties and one readers letter complains of an R.S.M. of his regiment that would 'go ballistic' if the word Lincoln was used in place of Lincolnshire.
I can only presume that the word Dorset would have upset a few and made the tashes stand on end.

In 1951 the official title changed to the "DORSET REGIMENT" with no change of badge. It never really was a "Shire" county so I don't think too many were upset. Only 7 years later the Regiment disappeared into the Brigade system to emerge later amalgamated with the the Devonshire Regt. as the "Army farmers" (D&D).

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jim Maclean

In 1951 the official title changed to the "DORSET REGIMENT" with no change of badge. It never really was a "Shire" county so I don't think too many were upset. Only 7 years later the Regiment disappeared into the Brigade system to emerge later amalgamated with the the Devonshire Regt. as the "Army farmers" (D&D).

And until finally knocked out in 1992 by Options for Change, 3 RTR were the Armoured Farmers.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by Jim Maclean

They are indeed well made, my theory is that they are a by product of that collectors series, Franklin Mint I think. The construction is similar.

This is the Birmingham Mint version of the DORSET badge. The 52 line infantry badges in the "Great British Regiments" collection were said to have been made by J R GAUNT who were taken over by the Birmingham Mint in 1973.

Tim

[fougasse1940]

the Birmingham Mint badge is the short scroll 4 sets of leaves version, which pretty much invalidiates Jim Maclean's theory.

Rgds,
Thomas.

[Jim Maclean]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

And until finally knocked out in 1992 by Options for Change, 3 RTR were the Armoured Farmers.

????????????????????

Not so! DDLI from 2005, now part of the 1st Bn The Rifles.

[Jim Maclean]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

the Birmingham Mint badge is the short scroll 4 sets of leaves version, which pretty much invalidiates Jim Maclean's theory.

Rgds,
Thomas.

Not invalidated if you apply a little thought to it, however if you wish to include either badge in your collection and call it genuine-crack on. They're fakes plain and simple.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Jim Maclean

Not invalidated if you apply a little thought to it, however if you wish to include either badge in your collection and call it genuine-crack on. They're fakes plain and simple.

I can't get my head around the "little thought", could you please explain?
I'm aware both the long and short scroll b/m badges were never issued. In early 1958 the existing Dorsetshire badges stock was depleted and the Dorset AA was issued for a very limited time until the amalgamation with the Devonshire Regt. Or was that the b/m short scroll version?
He also writes: The Regimental Museum, using original Gaunt dies, had made and sold b/m cap badges with both Dorsetshire and Dorset. These must be regarded as "re-strikes".
That suggests at least a Gaunt die was made for a b/m Dorset badge?
My interest lies in the gray area between intent and issue. Collin G. Churchill may have a point with his long scroll Dorset trial story, it could explain the existence of these badges.

Rgds,
Thomas.

[Alan O]

There is no need for a trial Dorset badge. The Bn were wearing the old stock Dorsetshire badges and then switched to a/a. Therefore no 'trial' required. the WD would have no need for a trial bi-metal badge - they wouldhave ordered some prototypes , agreed to the sealed pattern and then gone into production. As it was it would appear that they went straight to a/a.

Bi-metal ORs Dorset badges are reproductions for the museum or collectors' market imo.

[Jim Maclean]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

I can't get my head around the "little thought", could you please explain?
I'm aware both the long and short scroll b/m badges were never issued. In early 1958 the existing Dorsetshire badges stock was depleted and the Dorset AA was issued for a very limited time until the amalgamation with the Devonshire Regt. Or was that the b/m short scroll version?
He also writes: The Regimental Museum, using original Gaunt dies, had made and sold b/m cap badges with both Dorsetshire and Dorset. These must be regarded as "re-strikes".
That suggests at least a Gaunt die was made for a b/m Dorset badge?
My interest lies in the gray area between intent and issue. Collin G. Churchill may have a point with his long scroll Dorset trial story, it could explain the existence of these badges.

Rgds,
Thomas.

My point is that both long and short scroll badge are very similar in quality and construction. It may be possible that a mistake was made in the first run and these have reached the market with a long scroll purporting to be whatever.

There is also an assumption that the regulars wore the staybrite badge, this I find hard to believe given the ACF didn't get them until 1968.

As I've said before, there isn't a shred of evidence that I've seen presented suggesting that these are other than fake.

[badjez]

I will plead that the South West is beyond my normal (limited) sphere of knowledges, but I've unearther two interesting entries in the Ordnance List of Change:

30.09.54. CB 1956- The design is the Castle and Key, surmounted by the Sphinx inscribed ‘Marabout’ and beneath the Key a Scroll inscribed ‘Primus in Indus’ all in nickel silver (plated finish). Surrounding the Castle is a Wreath of Laurel in gilding metal (gilt finish) on which is inscribed ‘Dorsetshire’. These were approved for Home Guard officers.

30.04.57.
Badges, Cap. Dorset Regt.
AA (Cat No CB 7689).
GM and WM (Cat No CB 7690).
Buttons. Dorset Regt.
AA.Large (Cat No CA 4299).
Small (Cat No CA 4300).
1. New Patterns.Patterns (No 17234 to guide, 17234, 17235 to guide and 17236 to guide) of the above-mentioned items have been sealed to govern future manufacture.The new patterns differ from the old (No 4532A) (Cat No CB 3071, CB 0036, CA 2777 and CA 2779) (See C4583 and C4716) in that the word ‘Dorset’ replaces ‘Dorsetshire’.Badges, Cap.

Dorset Regt. OP. AA (Cat No CB 3071).GM and WM (Cat No CB 0336).Buttons. Dorset Regt.AA. OP.Large (Cat No CA 2777).Small (Cat No CA 2779).
2. Change in Designation.Obsolescent.Consequent upon ‘1’, the designation of the above item is amended to read as now shown and hereby declared obsolescent.
= = =

I would therefore submit that legitimate Dorsetshire cap badges may well have been introduced and worn in limited numbers for both officers and OR.

Stephen.

[fougasse1940]

I'm not so much interested in whether they were worn (I believe not), but where the design came from. I find it hard to believe that a long scroll badge die was made solely for the museum shop and/or collectors.
Both Alan O "they would have ordered some prototypes" and Jim Maclean "It may be possible that a mistake was made in the first run" provide a possible explanation for the existence of the long scroll.

Thank you Stephen for your post.

Rgds,
Thomas.

[Jim Maclean]

Originally Posted by badjez

I will plead that the South West is beyond my normal (limited) sphere of knowledges, but I've unearther two interesting entries in the Ordnance List of Change:

30.09.54. CB 1956- The design is the Castle and Key, surmounted by the Sphinx inscribed ‘Marabout’ and beneath the Key a Scroll inscribed ‘Primus in Indus’ all in nickel silver (plated finish). Surrounding the Castle is a Wreath of Laurel in gilding metal (gilt finish) on which is inscribed ‘Dorsetshire’. These were approved for Home Guard officers.

30.04.57.
Badges, Cap. Dorset Regt.
AA (Cat No CB 7689).
GM and WM (Cat No CB 7690).
Buttons. Dorset Regt.
AA.Large (Cat No CA 4299).
Small (Cat No CA 4300).
1. New Patterns.Patterns (No 17234 to guide, 17234, 17235 to guide and 17236 to guide) of the above-mentioned items have been sealed to govern future manufacture.The new patterns differ from the old (No 4532A) (Cat No CB 3071, CB 0036, CA 2777 and CA 2779) (See C4583 and C4716) in that the word ‘Dorset’ replaces ‘Dorsetshire’.Badges, Cap.

Dorset Regt. OP. AA (Cat No CB 3071).GM and WM (Cat No CB 0336).Buttons. Dorset Regt.AA. OP.Large (Cat No CA 2777).Small (Cat No CA 2779).
2. Change in Designation.Obsolescent.Consequent upon ‘1’, the designation of the above item is amended to read as now shown and hereby declared obsolescent.
= = =

I would therefore submit that legitimate Dorsetshire cap badges may well have been introduced and worn in limited numbers for both officers and OR.

Stephen.

Many thanks for that reference, it does make me wonder why in the days of Staybrite a GM/WM version was sealed. This is the first documented reference I've seen.

I know that SP/G and OSD versions were made but they were private purchase.

I doubt the GM/WM ever went into production as 30.04.57 is very close to the amalgamation with the Devonshire Regiment and is unlikely they'd be required.

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

I'm not so much interested in whether they were worn (I believe not), but where the design came from. I find it hard to believe that a long scroll badge die was made solely for the museum shop and/or collectors.
Both Alan O "they would have ordered some prototypes" and Jim Maclean "It may be possible that a mistake was made in the first run" provide a possible explanation for the existence of the long scroll.

Thank you Stephen for your post.

Rgds,
Thomas.

I was referring to the Birmingham Mint copies when I commented on the possibility of a mistake.

I've been to the museum many, many times over the years and cannot recall anything other than the DORSETSHIRE variant of copy being sold.

[badjez]

I don't think it likely that any 'finished ' cap badges of an early, un-approved, design would have been made, let alone make it into the public domain.

The design process started with sketches, which had to be approved by Sovereign, regt and WO before anything was made. Once they were approved a lead sample was made. Again this had to be approved by regt & WO. After that samples were produced. This was the last opportunity for changes to be made. Once these were approved the die, from which the samples were produced, was hardened and finished samples produced of 'real' cap badges. This was the first time recognisable cap badges would have been produced. It was these finished samples that were used for the Sealed Patterns.

Once production was authorised the pattern was sealed, a catalogue number issued, and the LoC up-dated. The previous pattern would be re-named 'OP' for Obsolete Pattern. Badges would then be available for the QM to indent for. Most of the time the proviso was that that new badges would be supplied on a maintenance basis i.e. when supplies of the previous pattern were exhausted. For this reason it may be that no new Dorsetshire badges were issued.

Stephen.

Regards, Stephen.