Odd Hong Kong Land Forces patch

[sapper533]

Hi
Recently obtained this sign, the odd thing about it is that there is no central black stripe, it's not faded, it's not washed out it just isn't there!

I have never seen one before and can't remember one being illustrated anywhere.

Could it be like the Scottish HQ/Troops signs?

Cheers
Sean

[Mike Jackson]

That's very unusual. I have numerous variations on the HQ Land Forces Hong Kong sign including mint facing pairs with precisely the same dragon as on the example you illustrated - but all examples in my collection of whatever period and method of manufacture have the central black stripe. Subject to being corrected by Postwarden, I believe that all these signs were locally made. Perhaps a small number were made in error without the horizontal black bar before the error was spotted? Mike

[Paul Spellman]

Could it be a short lived commemoration flash used by the DERR (ex R.Berks/Wilts) to celebrate 150yrs of the 1843 China Battle Honour, the R.Berks used the same style Dragon. ???
Paul

[sapper533]

The seller described it as Hong Kong Regt, I didn't pay much attention to that but could that be why.......did they come under control of HQ Land Forces?

[Paul Spellman]

Sean,
There are a few Regt's who use/used the China Dragon including a couple of RA Bty's but the only one with the same style Dragon as the HK formation sign as far as I am aware was the R.Berks/DERR. There was a resurgence of Formation sign wear in the early 90's. The DERR amalgated with the Glousters in '94 but celebrated the 150yr China Honour in '93. my suggestion is probably way off but there are other avenues to take into account rather than it being a HK Land Forces sign mistake which ultimately it may well be, an interesting badge.
Paul
As you probably know the HK Regt Dragon is also a different style to the FS sign and it is two facing

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by sapper533

The seller described it as Hong Kong Regt, I didn't pay much attention to that but could that be why.......did they come under control of HQ Land Forces?

The HKR was subordinate to HQ British Forces Hong Kong. These images from the 1950s, although of poor quality, show the HKR slip ons, the sign of HQ Land Forces Hong Kong (with red/black/red ground) on the left arm and the triangular red/yellow/blue HKR flash on the right arm. Mike
HKR.01.jpgHKR.02.jpgHKR.03.jpg

[Postwarden]

The mystery sign is indeed unusual. It has all the hallmarks of having been made by The Calico Printers Company who had a monopoly on the post-war production of British formation signs. That in itself is unusual for as Mike says most HK signs appear to have been made in Hong Kong. The only exception I can find is that attached which again looks like a Calico product.

This thread shows a version of the sign worn - http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ight=hong+kong

In July 1969 HQ Land Forces, Hong Kong applied for a sign for 51st Brigade ‘to perpetuate this formation’s long-established connection with the Colony’. Despite the Hong Kong Government’s agreement that the sign was to be the crowned lion used as ‘the dexter supporter’ on Hong Kong's coat of arms was rejected as too closely resembling that on the Royal Coat of arms and several more designs were submitted until it was agreed in April 1970 that the sign would be a gold Chinese dragon on blue which the Brigade wore until disbanded in 1976. As can be seen the dragon worn by the Brigade is very similar to that on the mystery item and there may be a connection although the 51st Brigade sign is only known as a woven silk sign.

Another one for the mystery box.

Jon

[Mike Jackson]

That's very helpful. One of the pair attached here were cut from a large number of identical signs all uncut - and the size of a bath towel. I still have it "somewhere safe" (so cannot be found!). The manufacturer's name and address (in Kowloon) is printed on the border. One cannot get more Locally Made than that. The 51 Inf Bde sign was not particularly well received by those required to wear it - the colours seemed inappropriate for an Infantry formation and for HK. I think that 1st Bn DWR and 1st Bn Irish Guards (1970-73) both ignored it! Mike
HQLF Hong Kong.LP_Kowloon.01.jpg

[Mike Jackson]

Whilst on Hong Kong signs, the one attached here is unusual in that it came from a collection put together by a British Army Sgt in India in 1944-46 which was undisturbed until about 2005. The sign is unusual in that it is distinctly smaller that another woven sign in my collection. it's folded under at each end and I have not disturbed it. The width as viewed on the centre of the black portion is 62mm and from extremities of claws is 52mm (cf 62mm on my mint example). A very early sign or has it simply shrunk in the wash? Mike
HQLF Hong Kong_India Collection.01.jpg

[Hoot]

There may be a connection to the Hong Kong Military Service Corps (1962-97). Officers of the HKMSC wore a bullion version of the same design as a beret badge, a gold dragon on a red felt patch.

[sapper533]

The afore mentioned badge is now with me and here is the reverse, no sign of any black stripe.

[sapper533]

For completeness here's the standard version from a manufacturers sheet.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by sapper533

The afore mentioned badge is now with me and here is the reverse, no sign of any black stripe.

Thanks. That's pretty convincing and very mysterious. I should love to know what the MHerS have to say about it. Would you permit this sign to feature in the next Formation Sign? Mike

[sapper533]

Of course Mike.
Cheers
Sean

[Mike Jackson]

Sean,
Thanks. I hope Post Warden is reading this!
Mike