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Old 04-04-18, 07:54 PM
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Default FSH Irish Guards

Before today I accepted the theory that Foreign Service helmet badges to the Irish Guards were thus;
Bronze (unvoided) / other ranks.
Bronze voided / Officers.
Gilt silver centre / possibly Officers ( as described by K&K).
Then this beauty came into my life, and raised more questions than it answers.
The Officers Polo Helmet in the background was inside the same fitted tin, both named to the same Irish Guards Officer.

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Old 04-04-18, 08:23 PM
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Very nice Sean, and possibly very scarce. Whats the date in the FSH ?
Andy
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Old 04-04-18, 11:08 PM
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Polo Helmet is dated 1934 which pre-dates the Irish Guards tour to Palestine. Will take another look at the FSH tomorrow.
It belonged to an officer called Brigadier D.M.L Gordon-Watson

Brigadier David Michael Lindsay Gordon-Watson MC (and 2 bars).
In 1934 he was commissioned into the Territorial Army before transferring to the 1st Battalion Irish Guards and being posted to Egypt.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obi...on-Watson.html
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Last edited by seanhath; 04-04-18 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 05-04-18, 02:03 PM
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Sean,

What a fine collection you are putting together for the regiment.

I personally don’t see any conflict between this helmet and the question of whether IG officers wore bronzed pierced FSH stars in the pagri. FSHs fall into two general categories; a white version for ceremonial use, and a khaki drab version for service use. Your helmet, being white, is clearly intended for full dress/ceremonial use.

It is unofficial and I am going to speculate was produced by officers on a case by case basis by those officers who had a need (or desire) to use full dress on Foreign Service and wanted to further embellish the helmet from what the DRs authorized (which was white helmet, or khaki helmet with white cover, regimental bronzed badge and plume). Chains and spikes to be worn on ceremonial occasions when officers were not on duty with troops.

They would have been following the practice of the Grenadiers and Coldstream officers in using enameled badges in the FSH.

I suggest that the PM’s star was used as the “template for the star”. I have no doubt about its genuineness.

Helmets – Service Abroad, 1934
The 1934 Dress Regs. Para 685, Infantry, Foot Guards, Full Dress, states white Wolseley Helmet with white pagri is worn in full dress in place of the bearskin cap.

Para 721, Infantry, Foot Guards, service dress abroad states ‘Khaki Helmet, as in para 42.

Para 42 in turn provides instructions that the Brigade of Guards may wear regimental pagri badges and plumes (all attached)

Wearing of the FSH by The Irish Guards
There were only two deployments of formed bodies of the regiment during which the FSH was (theoretically) issued for wear. Constantinople 1922-23 and Palestine/Egypt 1936-38. All of my regimental and general histories are in storage at the moment and I have no access to them. I think I recall in the regiment magazine there is an image of the regiment in Constantinople in FSH. Images are few and few between.

It is well documented that the FSH was issued for Palestine /Egypt. Your dates appear to line up with this tour.

The badges worn in the FSH

1900 – 1935.
In common with many line regiments the forage cap stars were also sealed for the FSH in the early 1900s. However as recorded in WO/32/3245, The GOC London district noted in March that “this star [here he refers to the officers forage cap star] sealed in 1905 is considered to be too small and has not actually been worn”

1935.
It is well documented that bronzed solid and pierced stars were approved by the King and sealed for the IG. The documentation resides in WO/32/3245 (attached here is the article I wrote for the bulletin of the MHS regarding this star).

Further body of evidence that these were indeed issued and worn resides in the following.
a) IWM Catalogue numbers INS 12371 & INS 12372. A box of officers sealed pattern badges and buttons held by regimental HQs as ordered in regulations for the army. I have seen this box and the images I have shared with you. I will not post them on the open forum as I do not have permission to reproduce them in public.

INS 12372 is the card with the FSH stars and the online description is
A bronzed metal pagri badge for the Irish Guards, with pair of lugs on reverse, the badge is shaped around the emblem which comprises a circular centre piece featuring the shamrock on St Patrick's Cross encircled by inscription reading "QUIS SEPARABIT MDCCLXXXIII" all imposed on an eight-point star, the badge is one of two insignia mounted on white card entitled "IRISH GUARDS. Pagri Badge for Officers", the insignia are tied together with white cotton tape on reverse and sealed with green wax impressed with the stamp of the Ministry of Defence Army Officers Pattern. As you know the second badge on this card is annotated "Pagri Badge for Other Ranks" and is the solid centre version.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30063895


b) The 1934 DRs states that the badge is in bronze
c) Mahon in part 2 of his IG insignia article in the Rgt journal ( 1987) article, refers to the officers bronzed voided tropical helmet stars
d) An example of the khaki helmet, with the pierced bronzed star, exists in a private collection in the USA (image below). I'll PM you the name of the owner if you desire it

Thus I don’t think we should be in any doubt that the bronzed pierced stars were official and issued although I will admit I have no clear photographic evidence on hand.

I do not watch every sale but I can think of seeing 4 of these pierced bronze stars coming up for sale from time to time since approx. 2005 one of which I bought and is illustrated in the MHS article a 5th being the one in the pattern box at the IWM and a 6th being the one on the helmet attached below.

I think yours is an unofficial FSH for officers ceremonial use, why did Mahon & K&K miss it, I think because it is unofficial and would have been produced in small quantities, possibly in smaller numbers than the pierced bronzed star if we assume it was a discretionary item and/or not all officers had a need or use for ceremonial dress in Palestine. This is pure speculation on my behalf.

Any marks (hallmark or other) on the star to help further date, is it the same dimension as the PM star?

John

I know I have shared some of the attachments below privately but for the sake of public debate I thought I would post here.Apologies that 1934 DR PARA 731 has posted inverted
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1934 DR 42.jpg (87.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 1934 DR 685.jpg (64.2 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 1934 DR 734.jpg (55.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg IG 87 P2.jpg (97.3 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg IG OFFICERS FSH STAR.jpg (65.2 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg 1934 DR 721.jpg (45.3 KB, 13 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The Irish Guards 1935 FSH Stars.pdf (607.6 KB, 18 views)

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 05-04-18 at 02:33 PM. Reason: added post script
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  #5  
Old 05-04-18, 05:26 PM
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John, as always - interesting and informative, thank you!

I have checked (what I’m now calling the ‘full dress FSH’) and there are no hallmarks. I even took it apart - nothing inside either to give clue or answer to its origins.
It is indeed the exact same size as a Pipe Majors etc Star, and because one was close to hand I’ve photographed it here with a 4 lug valise star and an other ranks FSH bronze star.



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Old 05-04-18, 05:30 PM
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In addition to this - the origins of this FSH in Gilt with the silver centre (from the Edgar Delia collection) are still unclear. Where did K&K see it? When was it worn, and what rank wore it?
Image shared here, next to an Other ranks Bronze FSH Star.

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Old 29-09-19, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanhath View Post
In addition to this - the origins of this FSH in Gilt with the silver centre (from the Edgar Delia collection) are still unclear. Where did K&K see it? When was it worn, and what rank wore it?
Image shared here, next to an Other ranks Bronze FSH Star.

Could this have been worn by Warrant Officers ? I believe Sgt's and Csgt's wore an all over gilt badge ? Just a thought.
Andy
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Old 29-09-19, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Could this have been worn by Warrant Officers ? I believe Sgt's and Csgt's wore an all over gilt badge ? Just a thought.
Andy
Andy,

I don't think Sean is active here any more so I will chime in.

I think its unlikely. The badge is question is FSH sized (I have one in my collection)

Although you are correct in saying Senior Ranks wore a gilt version of the forage cap star, to the best of my knowledge no stars were made (at least not bulk supply quantity) for full dress Foreign Service Helmets

Thus the bronzed (un-pierced and pierced for officers) stars, for use in the khaki FSH, seem to be the only FSH sized stars sealed and issued.

I suspect if WO's (or the regiment) were privately sourcing full dress FSH stars for use by WO's they would have been entitled to use a silver, gilt & enamel version as they were for forage and service cap stars.

Having said all that I still have no idea of its use other than it is near identical to some of the horse harness stars but I suspect they did not have loops (see photo).

John
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File Type: jpg IG Horse furniture ornament guards museum.jpg (38.9 KB, 28 views)
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Old 30-09-19, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Andy,

I don't think Sean is active here any more so I will chime in.

I think its unlikely. The badge is question is FSH sized (I have one in my collection)

Although you are correct in saying Senior Ranks wore a gilt version of the forage cap star, to the best of my knowledge no stars were made (at least not bulk supply quantity) for full dress Foreign Service Helmets

Thus the bronzed (un-pierced and pierced for officers) stars, for use in the khaki FSH, seem to be the only FSH sized stars sealed and issued.

I suspect if WO's (or the regiment) were privately sourcing full dress FSH stars for use by WO's they would have been entitled to use a silver, gilt & enamel version as they were for forage and service cap stars.

Having said all that I still have no idea of its use other than it is near identical to some of the horse harness stars but I suspect they did not have loops (see photo).

John
Thanks John
Yes i see your point, your probably right.
Andy
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