Essex Yeomanry uniform (Badjez request)

[Longdog]

Hello Stephen,

As requested on the "brass letter Y" post:
please see photos of the Essex Yeomanry uniform.
Thought it best to post as stand alone as I didn't wish to divert topic from someone's thread.
There are no labels present on the inside.
Hope this is of interest.
PS please don't tell anyone I showed you this, I collect only metal shoulder titles and wouldn't want it be known I've strayed from the path......

Keep smiling, all the best,

Pat

[badjez]

Pat,

Thanks for sharing your secret. Guilty also on two counts
a) I'm usually only interested in post-1908 items, but will make an exception
b) I've just drooled all over my keyboard...

May I just ask you to repeat the measurements of the EIY letters, and confirm if they have one loop, two loops or a hex fitting? I ask this as old stock were possibly reintroduced early in the Gt War, and would therefore come within my collecting sphere.

Thanks again,

Stephen.

[Expat Yeoman]

Thanks for posting Pat, nice to see one of these. I've seen another which has a red embroidered knot [sorry not the correct name for this, which escapes me right now] to the base of the sleeve (as does the illustration in the Smith & Knight Uniforms of the Imperial Yeomanry book) but it looks like not on yours. Is there any evidence that it has been unpicked on your one?

I'm thinking the letters and numbers on the final image are initials and a regimental number. Are you able to confirm the final digit and I'll see if I can find a name from the records.

Stephen the tunic pattern was worn 1906-1908 and I've not found any evidence that the three part title parts were reused beyond that point. It is a rare title which isn't in Westlake. The two part E Y title was worn only by 3/1st and from memory the letters are smaller. Give me a few days and I can send you photos of front and back with dimensions if of interest.

Michael

[Alan O]

I think the term is 'Austrian knot'

[Expat Yeoman]

Yup that's the one - thanks Alan!

[Alan O]

I would be interested to know if the collar lugs sit at the centre of the circlet or 2/3rds of the way up? Both versions can be found and I have never been sure if one was cap and the other collar or simply a makers' variation.

[badjez]

I have a feeling that the T/Y/ESSEX title did not replace the EIY title until about 1912, along with so many other Essex badges.

Keith hook thinks there are at least four makers' variations of letters, with square, single and double lugs.

Any more info would be most welcome.

Stephen.

[Longdog]

Gents,

Glad the photo's were of interest, you are most welcome.

Stephen,
Both pairs of titles (6 letters) are 19mm height.
Each letter has two round copper lugs.

Michael,
I have added more photo's to cover:
Pen markings that read: A.W.S. 900.
I was remiss in the fact there was another stamp marking inside.
There may well have been an "Austrian Knot" on the base of each sleeve (thanks Alan) as one sleeve has a small red thread present.
There is a faint outline measuring approx. 20+mm width by 100mm height.
Would be very interesting if you can find out anything more about who may have worn this.

Thank you very much for dating the tunic period worn.
I will post separately comments relating to the shoulder titles.

Alan,
I will take some further photo's of the collar badges tonight, hope I get the correct detail required as I have definitely strayed into foreign territory now!

All the best,

Pat

[Longdog]

Michael,

Thank you for showing the three part E / I Y example you have on the "brass letter Y" thread.
Always nice to see other patterns and variations that are out there.

If the tunic period worn date was 1906 - 1908, does that confirm the E I Y entwined pattern title was the earlier of the two patterns first worn ?
I always understood that to be the case.

Couple of points:
Westlake in original book stated E Y entwined worn pre 1908 then in later revision stated: E I Y entwined, then the three part example.
Is this a type error ? I am not aware that a E Y entwined title exists.

Observation: From memory (dodgy ground here!):
Essex may be the only Yeomanry Regiment that adopted two distinctly different title patterns during the Imperial period that were official issue.
Thoughts / comments ?

Have shown the E I Y entwined example I have.
Hope this is of interest.

May I ask if you can post a photo of the two part E Y title you have and any information relating to period of wear, etc would be appreciated.

All the best,

Pat

[Longdog]

Alan,

Please refer to photos of the collar badges.
One was proving difficult to remove so left it in-situ.
Did however confirm the lug type and positioning on the circlet is the same.
Hope this helps.

All the best,

Pat

[Alan O]

Pat

Thank you very much for taking the time to show them. You can't argue with that evidence.

Now I just need to find a cap with a badge fitted to compare it to.

Alan

[Expat Yeoman]

I'm away from my badges right now so going from my written notes. Will post any corrections once I can get the badges out again and happy to provide photos of any items of interest at that point. To try to respond to the separate comments and questions:

Lug locations. Alan, I think these are maker variations. There is a slidered version of the Audacter et Sincere badge in both gilt and gilding metal, but they are both very rare to find and I believe based on the volumes of slidered and lugged examples seen that the latter must also have been worn as headdress.

There is a sealed pattern at the IWM of the gilt version but unfortunately the sealing wax on the rear is so extensive I couldn't determine whether the cap badge had a slider or lugs. A second IWM pattern card had the gilt collar badge removed and based on the 'shadow' left on the card the lugs look to be the 10 & 2 o'clock variety.

The gilt example with slider is curious as the slider is in a white metal and is a short length. There are no obvious signs of conversion from lugs. I have seen a few examples which to me suggests these were done deliberately rather than by an industrious individual. The gilding metal badge has a long slider (longer than the badge) but it also rare to find.

T/Y/Essex title. From my notes I think Westlake has this dated to 1908 but I don't have my copy of the book to hand to double-check. The IWM have a pattern card for this title (to guide converting it to the scarce Y/Essex version) but it is not the sealed pattern so doesn't give a date of the original approval.

E / IY and E Y titles with separate letters. Stephen, I am sure Keith is right and there are several variations of the E / IY title. We certainly have two with Pat's and my examples.

Pat, I'm aware of two two-part E Y titles and I will photograph and post when I can next access them. To my knowledge they were only worn by 3/1st Essex Yeomanry. The OR pattern is in brass, and I guess could have been reused letters from the 3 part E I Y badge as mine are ~19mm height so similar to your example, equally they could be a completely different manufacturer. I'll examine them more closely when I have them to hand. The second pattern is in bronze for the officers of 3/1st and the letters are smaller than the brass pattern (c. 16mm). Neither are mentioned in Westlake. I suspect as they were for 3/1st that they were never officially approved and sealed.

EIY script title. Pat, from my records the script title was worn 1905-1908 on Full Dress only (as an aside, the sealed pattern is dated 1906 so the badge was worn prior to approval!) The Smith & Knight MHS Imperial Yeomanry book states that the script title was worn from 1901 but as their text and plates give conflicting dates and given the date of the pattern card I lean to the 1905 date.

The three individual letter title was worn for the full IY period from formation in 1902 through to 1908 - on all dress up to 1905 and all ex Full Dress from 1905 so that one is the first pattern.

Like you I think Westlake's reference to an EY script title is a typo, I have never seen such a badge and the sequence of use is E / IY as first pattern and the EIY floriated script as second pattern.

As to whether Essex were the only unit to have two different titles I'm not able to comment as my knowledge of the other IY units is sketchy at best. There will others on the forum more able to answer that question I'm sure. As an ex Essex Yeoman though I rather hope that turns out to be the case

Tunic - Pat thanks for confirming the number on the tunic, I'll try and see if it does tally as a regimental number to the initials.

Michael

[Longdog]

Michael,

You are a veritable font of knowledge!
Thank you very much for providing so much information and sharing your thoughts, appreciated.
I will be updating my reference notes with the details you have provided.

Tunic: Will watch this space with interest to see what you discover.

Post IY period Essex Yeomanry titles:
I would like to continue discussing shoulder titles (and benefit from your experience!) if that is OK ?
If so, I will wait until after you have access to post the E Y titles so we don't get the thread out of order so to speak.

Essex: only Yeomanry Regiment with 2 different pattern IY titles:
After checking that evening, I still believe this observation is correct.
NB: I discount different size of the same pattern or unofficial / locally made examples.
Would be most happy to be corrected if anyone can show photos of other IY titles that exist that are not shown in the usual publications!!

All the best,

Pat

[Expat Yeoman]

Photos of:

1) gilt pattern with a) slider b) lugs at 10 / 2 o' clock c) lugs E-W

I have seen several examples with the white metal slider but as there are so few of them compared to the lugged pattern I believe the latter was also worn as a cap badge. I have a No.1 dress cap with a gilt Decus et Tutamen motto badge and that is a lugged version. (b) has the lugs in the same position as the pattern card, but is similarly rare to find. (c) is the most common.

2) gilding metal a) with slider b) lugs

As with the gilt pattern, I believe lugged was also worn on headdress as so few slidered examples seen.

[Expat Yeoman]

Photo of back to show the lug style and position, and the backing plate to aid spacing. The letters here are smaller than Longdog's example.