Tyneside Scottish.... Is this one OK?

[tonyb]

A rescent purchase, Tyneside Scottish cap badge, I've read the many old threads on this badge in an attempt to convince myself it's OK, but am not really any the wiser, thistle heads, skinny lions, portcullis'.......
Any help would be welcome.
Thanks Tony.

[tonyb]

And the rear.
Cheers Tony.

[ricardo]

hello tony, the badge you show is usually regarded as the "3rd pattern" TS badge, personally im not too sure about that! your badge is genuine and probably dates 1940 onwards. the badge is still used to this day by the 204th (Tyneside Scottish) battery Royal Artillery and by the local ACF on Tyneside. i'll probably get a lot of flak for saying that imo your pattern badge is in fact the 4th pattern issued in 1940, not a 3rd pattern issued in 1915. regards ricardo

[elgee45]

An edited version of Col. Wood's description of this badge, in 'The Fifth Fusiliers and its Badges' (1988 version):

Third Pattern Cap Badge, late 1915, Soldiers: St Andrew's Cross flanked by thistles with a superimposed tablet bearing the title Tyneside Scottish. Above the plaque is a tower carrying a lion rampant (standing on the dexter hind leg) on the tower with sinister fore leg raised bearing a pennant showing St Andrew's Cross. White metal 56 mm by 52 mm.

[ricardo]

hello elgee 45, i'll have to get a copy of this book! anyway regarding my opinion on the "3rd pattern" I've never seen an other ranks 3rd patt I could say was issued in 1915, I know a silver officers version exists hallmarked for 1915.... but then again I've seen an identical hallmarked officers badge for 1940!. in my collection I have all 4 patterns of the TS badge of which I have a dozen or so of the so called "3rd pattern" these in my collection are imo definitely ww2 if not later! another thing to consider is why did the Tyneside Scottish change badge patterns from 2nd patt to 3rd and 4th patt in 2 years? rather odd I think. so, was the 3rd pattern worn by ORS in late 1915 or like I suspect it was first issued for other ranks in 1940? ricardo

[elgee45]

Originally Posted by ricardo

hello elgee 45, i'll have to get a copy of this book! anyway regarding my opinion on the "3rd pattern" I've never seen an other ranks 3rd patt I could say was issued in 1915, I know a silver officers version exists hallmarked for 1915.... but then again I've seen an identical hallmarked officers badge for 1940!. in my collection I have all 4 patterns of the TS badge of which I have a dozen or so of the so called "3rd pattern" these in my collection are imo definitely ww2 if not later! another thing to consider is why did the Tyneside Scottish change badge patterns from 2nd patt to 3rd and 4th patt in 2 years? rather odd I think. so, was the 3rd pattern worn by ORS in late 1915 or like I suspect it was first issued for other ranks in 1940? ricardo

Hello Ricardo,

Col. Wood's book, The Fifth Fusiliers and its Badges gives a very comprehensive chronology of the TS badge variants. The first version of 1988 is an excellent read, packed with good info. The second version, published this year is even better - great colour plates, additional information and quality printing and binding. Well worth having in your library. I believe it's available through Amazon, though I ordered my copy from forum member 'Silver Tourist'.

Take care - Lawrence Gribben

[gb64]

Hello Tony,
Could you post a pic of the lugs with out the cotter pin in place, just checking on those feet on the lugs?

Gerard

[Silver Tourist]

Good afternoon.
You won't get it through Amazon. They wanted 60% of the sale price. Hence, when you log onto Amazon you will see it is "Unavailable", which is odd because I'm sitting here looking at a nice pile of them as I type this. It will show you some cracking reviews though

I have heard people speak before of a 1940 hallmarked version. Neither I nor Col Wood have ever seen one and we have been collecting for over 120 years between us!

The badge depicted at the beginning of this thread is indeed the third pattern, introduced in late 1915. It is known as Wood 450.

In w/m for other-ranks this should feature a horizontal pin fitting, with the pin being of carbon steel and the hinge being a small tube. The base of the pin has a characteristic triangular shape which is unique to this unit.

Enjoy.

S.T.

[tonyb]

Originally Posted by gb64

Hello Tony,
Could you post a pic of the lugs with out the cotter pin in place, just checking on those feet on the lugs?

Gerard

Gerard,
Will try and post an image of lugs later.
Tony.

[ricardo]

Good afternoon ST, re: the silver hallmarked 1940 Tyneside Scottish glengarry badge, one was sold on ebay about 2 years ago, I remember the vendor describing the hallmarks as the anchor (Birmingham) and the date letter as a "q" he also stated it was the date for 1954? I emailed him and suggested the date letter "q" was more likely 1915, which to me tied in nicely with the 3rd pattern! imagine my surprise as he emailed me back to confirm the date letter was in fact an uppercase "Q" which as you will probably know dates it to 1940! I put a few bids on the badge but alas to no avail. can't actually remember what the winning bid was? anyway, this had me thinking, perhaps the 3rd pattern in 1915 was solely a privately brought badge for officers? not an issue for other ranks, looking through my collection of T/S badges I have a lovely genuine 1st pattern, nine broached 2nd pattern, a dozen or more "3rd pattern" and 4 1916 "demi-lion" 4th pattern badges, imo the 3rd pattern badges I own are 1940s+ I suppose what im trying to point out is I have genuine 2nd pattern 1915 badges and genuine 4th pattern 1916 badges, but no 3rd pattern I could positively date to late 1915. and for years, I always found it odd that the T/S would change its badge twice after the 2nd pattern, after all there was more pressing matters than a change of cap badge!! anyway back to reality! these theorys of mine are as I say just theorys (or possibly the ramblings of a mad man!) and shouldn't be regarded as fact. after all having not seen a badge does not mean it does not exist! ricardo

[Silver Tourist]

Good evening.

Good evening.

Well that's odd, because I monitor eBay very closely, and have done for the last eight years. And I reckon I've bought almost every hallmarked TS item on eaby in that period. And none of them were hallmarked 1940. The only one I missed certainly was not hallmarked 1940-41.

Still, one never knows. It will probably appear at Mr Bosley's fine emporium of delectable comestibles in due course and we can all have fun bidding on said item.

By the way date letters span years, so 'q' is 1915-1916 and 'Q' is 1940-41 for Birmingham. Always worth remembering that.

Enjoy.

S.T.

[ricardo]

trust me ST it was there! I bid on it! and regarding hallmarks, I brought my first book of silver hallmarks in 1979, I kinda know hallmarks... I used to deal in silver! kind regards ricardo

[TRT]

Originally Posted by Silver Tourist

Good afternoon.
You won't get it through Amazon. They wanted 60% of the sale price. Hence, when you log onto Amazon you will see it is "Unavailable", which is odd because I'm sitting here looking at a nice pile of them as I type this. It will show you some cracking reviews though

I have heard people speak before of a 1940 hallmarked version. Neither I nor Col Wood have ever seen one and we have been collecting for over 120 years between us!

The badge depicted at the beginning of this thread is indeed the third pattern, introduced in late 1915. It is known as Wood 450.

In w/m for other-ranks this should feature a horizontal pin fitting, with the pin being of carbon steel and the hinge being a small tube. The base of the pin has a characteristic triangular shape which is unique to this unit.

Enjoy.

S.T.

So would a lugged third pattern be wrong? Should it be a pin?

TRT

[gb64]

Originally Posted by TRT

So would a lugged third pattern be wrong? Should it be a pin?

TRT

TRT

If that's the case there will be a few disappointed collectors on the forum, me included

Gerard

[ricardo]

hello trt its a bloody mine field out there! my first collection of badges was in the mid seventies, and my collection was probably 80% reproduction! (I still remember my machine gun battalion in brass with lugs!!!) anyway apologises I digress! your badge with lugs is more than likely a good one.... sight unseen! the 3rd pattern should have long lugs with a nice golden braze, this in my opinion is a 1940's 12th battalion DLI issue ricardo