Australian Camel Corp badge real or fake?

[pukman]

I'm doing a favour for a friend of a friend by posting these pictures for critical analysis.Is this badge good or bad,and what would you think its current value.It is cap badge size ,and has only one remainly lug.Lugs seem to be cast integrally.

Cheers iain

[slick_mick]

This is one of the more heavily faked Australian badges - I personally wouldn't touch this myself unless I had some providence about it.

Mick

[ANGLE IRON]

Hello pukman, I have no special knoledge of this one but looking at in terms of how naturaly aged it looks [including area of snapped off lug] I would have bought it, Kevin

[slick_mick]

Originals of this badge were sand cast as are many of the reproductions.

I personally would give this one a miss myself. It doesn't look right to me.

Mick

[pukman]

Thanks guys,the more opinions on this one the better.

I own a NZ Camel Corp badge so have a reasonable knowledge about that badge.It also has been faked but but the flaws can be detectable with a little experience.
Having viewed this Australian one,it does show tremedous age,it certainly hasn't been cleaned in a very long time.Like the NZ one the lugs are cast internal .Flecks of sand can be seen on the back of the badge when held up in the light.I wonder if any collecters out there with a genuine Australian camel badge could come forward with their opinion.As no money has passed hands on this one it is no big deal financially,but the search for the truth is the main priority.

cheers iain

[pukman]

A couple more photo's in a different light.

[Staffsyeoman]

Well, I'm not sure I've needed to invoke the guidance of the Almighty in wondering if I've got a 'right' badge before (providence) rather than a history of ownership (provenance) - but I'd avoid this one, to be honest.

[pukman]

There must be a few badges out there that are indeed genuine examples that no one can provide provenance.Whether this one is or not i would like to find out.As i have said it was given to a friend by his friend,its not for sale,its in private hands.If its a really old fake,then no harm is done.

The NZ camel badge i bought in 2008 has no provenance,but it has passed through several expert hands including David Corbett(author of NZ Badges and Insignia)

I myself have studied and written of the differences between a fake and a genuine NZ camel badge.Surely there are Australian badge enthusiats out there who have done similar work on this Australian camel badge,that share an insight into this item.I would like to hear from them,before i make my mind up.


This badge is deffinately sandcast.Its as rough as ,on the back,lugs are cast internal.If it is a copy the it hasn't been done in the last 70 years or so ,judjing by the age ,dirt and grime.Now i have heard aneqdotal evidence that WW2 soldiers bought them in Baazer's in Egypt.If this is not genuine then i would think it would have come from that era.

If anyone needs higher deffinition photo's feel free to p/m me


Calling all Aussie badge experts out there!!!!!


cheers iain

[slick_mick]

I think it can be extremely difficult to tell an authentic period made badge from a sand cast reproduction.

Hence, why many collectors don't go anywhere near them.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of a back of a known good badge that I can use as a comparison.

Mick

[pukman]

Thanks for your opinions Mick.
I would like to see a clearly defined photo of the back of a known badge to form my opinion ,until then i will reserve judgement.

The fakers didn't always copy them preciesly.I think the lug shape and compisiition may have some bearing on whether it is good or not.

Fortunately for the NZ Camel badge, the known copies are cast brass ,not sandcast ,so can be identifiable.There maybe only 20-30 genuine examples of this badge out there.

It looks as though the Australian example was copied more than the NZ type.Would the sandcast copies have been in Egypt?

cheers iain

[slick_mick]

Yep. I believe they would have been originally all made in Egypt.

Mick

[badgecollector]

hi iain
what size is it?
will try and find my pics of the sandcast badges.
i have to agree with what has already been said. highly copied and most aussie badge collectors would stay away unless it came with the orriginal camel.
having said this, it does look ok and i would take a punt on it up to say? $50?
bc

[pukman]

Hello Badge Collector,

I neglected to take measurements of this badge , i would say a few milliemetres smaller than a full size Rising Sun Cap badge.As i understand shrinkage occurs in the sandcast process and these badges are slightly smaller than the badges they are cast off.

I had no idea what the pananoria that this badge invoked.Almost 100 years on how many of these badges still have true provenance,two or three generations down the track.Percieved provenance can also be faked.I imagine there are genuine badges shunned because they have no provenance,and possibly the odd one believed to be genuine that are fakes.What a conundrum

[badgecollector]

Hi Iain
Cossums book shows a badge similar to yours. Badge 184. It says the height is 46mm. I believe these bigger badges are rarer than the smaller versions often thought to be collar badges but also worn on cap and hat.
I can also tell you that about 5 years ago, i.s.wrights militaria sold one like yours for $650
BC

[pukman]

Hello B.C.

The height of this particular badge is a shade under 42mm.

Now apart from Cossum's reference book has anyone written any thing about this badge,and are there any badge authorities i can contact who actually own this badge?By matching characteristics of a known badge to a unknown badge we can work out the probability of weather it is genuine or not.

Is there photographic evidence that this badge was worn?.

I recently came across a period photo of a NZ camelier wearing the NZ camel corps badge,dated April 1917.Unequivical evidence that that particular badge was worn,not just a souvenir or momentoe badge .

I have read antedoctal evidence that the sandcast Australian Camel badge was also offered for sale ,in Egyptian Bazzars during WW2,probably bought as souvenirs by the son's of the original cameliers.I would guess this adds to the confusion


cheers iain