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  #16  
Old 01-10-17, 08:04 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
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Hi GTB

Better pics,4th Service Command is WWII era and is not a reproduction.

If this has a slight grainy feel/opaque glazing on the reverse its was an experiment carried out c45-48 to make patches more rigid, again this patch were manufactured during WWII.


Fifth Army has been in use since 1943. The cut edge is WWII era although the same manufacturers produced the same patch on the same machines into the early 50's, again this will pass as WWII era.

The merrowed Fifth is c1967-70's 80's re the pigtail and no plastc backing.

Second Army the cut edge is WWII era (never deployed overseas) the plastic backed one is interesting and not to sure how to categorize it.

At first thought its 50's(pre polyester thread) but it has a thick plastic backing, this is not the same as sizing so its had the plastic backing put on in modern times ie 80's but for what purpose on a then 30 year old patch? Possibly an experiment that would later add to all patches from the mid 80's on(?).

Hope this helps

Phill
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  #17  
Old 02-10-17, 01:04 PM
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Hi Phil

Thanks for the thorough and professional analysis, considering you are working solely on scanned material.

I have had the US patches for quite some time, acquired from different sources but it would take a lifetime hunting out notes I used to make for each and every single item acquired.

Some are evidently r.f.u. and I suppose would be more desirable than unused condition? The 2nd Army patch you are unsure about appears r.f.u. and there is a narrow all-round remnant of an emerald green base. The shade of this patch when compared to its neighbour is distinctly greener and I wonder if this could be a result of the change in uniform from khaki to green?

The earlier 5th Army patch is r.f.u.

My next scans concern 3 apparently identical 7th Army patches (WW2 period). But when turned over there is a big discrepancy in the weave, especially between top and middle patches - the bottom patch appears to be halfway between the others. with white flecks to the blue ground. These may be nothing more than manufacturers varieties. None have plastic so would they be classified as WW2 unused?

Re plastic on backs of badges. What was the purpose? As a form of binding agent to the weave?

GTB
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File Type: jpg 7thArmySSI_0002.jpg (65.0 KB, 11 views)
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  #18  
Old 02-10-17, 04:50 PM
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Hi GTB

Not to sure what rfu means?

Some one has used a marker, emerald green , around the edge.

I Have seen examples of this before-no one knows the significance if at all there was one.

During WWII up to the mid 50's SSI were embroidered on a khaki twill, then in the mid 50's onwards, manufacturers started to change the twill colour to match the design colour, manufacturers still used khaki twill as a base to embroidered on into the 60's.

The Second Army base colour was Olive Drab however OD in US terms can range from khaki to the green shade you show. It was changed to Army Green (Dark Green) 1959-66 before being deactivated.

The Army SSI you have shown are all US made standard cut edge fully embroidered and millions were manufactured and issued , so are not sort after or desirable.

All three Seventh Army SSI are cut edge 1950's, note embroidered on blue twill. The only difference is that there is more white bobbin thread used in production, this can change between manufacturers.

The early SSI experiment using sizing was to stop the patches fraying and make them more rigid.

The thick plastic coating from mid 80's onwards was to iron the shirt or jacket and place the the patch to adhere to the clothing and then sew on, so it could line up and make it more professional look , whether this was carried out is another story however that was the intent.

Phill

Last edited by Phill Lockett; 02-10-17 at 05:25 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-10-17, 06:19 PM
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Hi Phil.

More useful and interesting reading.

By 'marking' do you mean as in ink or dye? I would think this is not the case as I have used a magnifier along the edge of the patch and the admittedly very narrow strip of emerald green belongs to an actual coloured portion of cloth. Besides, this is beneath the plastic coating. Truly a case of more than meets the eye, as I feel like I am carrying out an autopsy on the badge!

r.f.u. signifies 'removed from uniform'.

GTB
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  #20  
Old 03-10-17, 06:25 AM
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Hi GTB

I have looked at the cut edge twill closely and to me I can see khaki edge next to the red cable or thread. Either way whether a marker or some dye applied , in the scheme of collecting SSI it really means nothing, what is baffling why is there a thick layer of adhesive plastic on a cut edge SSI-that I cannot answer.

However I will show some basic SSI WWII-Post WWII and try to explain some nuances.
First point I want to clarify, is that all official US SSI from WWII onwards is determined as Schiffli machine Fully Embroidered cut edge and later Merrow edged, any other variation to this is unofficial and authorized by local commander. Thus The whole patch must be fully covered.
First Row Second US Army L to R
So we have 3 x WWII variation note size , colour (Brown to olive drab) and partially embroidered.

The partially embroidered showing typical WWII Khaki twill backing. There was also an olive drab twill colour used throughout the war.

Second Row:Seventh US Army Post WWII.

Left variation is German made c late 40's-50's note weave, Right is as your standard US made from the 50's note blue will for comparison.

Third Row: XVIIIth Abn Corp , 108th ID 1950's.

Note the thin film of sizing on the back , the SSI was made 1940's and then had the sizing added to it post war, the tab is typical 1950's.

108th ID the cotton twill is a light shade possible its original greige twill colour and not dyed(cost cutting), also faded by being washed/laundered being uniform removed.
The second is embroidered on red twill , note 2 variation of Griffins which is 2 different manufacturers.

4th row 35th Tank Battalion and 3rd ID 1950's.
35th TB has the Army Green border which was authorized for the Army Green uniform 1957 onwards for SSI. Not all SSI were issued with AG Border and base.
3 ID has the emerald green around the cut edge , this has been added by an individual using a marker for what purpose? Apologies cannot enlarge this as have issues with my computer!!

In a nutshell these are some of the standard manufactured WWII post WWII SSI , they are regarded as common.

Probably the only scarce one is the Ranger tab.

Now just to throw a "yorker" what do you think of this 101?

There are manufacturing process that I have not covered for example the tapes that were created by the puncher which was based on the designer, who could put their creative embellishment on the SSI re Second Army first variation and 108th Griffin.

Hope this helps. Confusing I know.

Phill
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File Type: jpg IMG_20171003_0002 (Medium) (2).jpg (79.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171003_0001 (Medium).jpg (69.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 13. 101ABD(CWP)-13.JPG (33.8 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 13. 101ABD(CWP)-13 Reverse.JPG (38.8 KB, 8 views)
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  #21  
Old 03-10-17, 11:11 AM
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Hi Phil

Quite a comprehensive explanation and I am sure this thread is benefitting other SSI collectors too.

I have revisited the 2nd Army patch (green edging,heavy plastic) and I can confirm there is no trace of khaki edging. I cannot understand, though, why red thread was employed. I stress that this red thread was applied prior to the laying on of the plastic adhesive.

Re your 101st. I don't really think I am qualified enough to give an opinion but for what it's worth.... It looks like a wartime produced (khaki uniform material), r.f.u., later-sized item (patch & tab together). I don't know if I am making sense here! Incidentally,if my memory serves me well, my only 101st SSI came to me as my first US patch (with separate tab) and I believe it is r.f.u. although it is in pristine condition and hasn't been sized (see scan)

In an earlier post you mentioned 'pigtail'. Does the pigtail give a time-frame? Should it be left hanging to be visible when displaying patches?

GTB
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  #22  
Old 03-10-17, 05:08 PM
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Hi GTB, there is a book by :-

Hans De Bree,
World War 2 U.S. made,
Fully Machine-Embroidered,
Cut-Edge Shoulder Sleeve Insignia

And How They Were Manufactured
A Collectors Guide

A really good book, would help if a few people were reading it at the same time and disscuss his findings as reading by oneself you could miss-interpret a section and have to reread to understand but thats me, the author takes it step by step I guess he accepts the reader has a reasonable understanding already.

All the best billy
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  #23  
Old 03-10-17, 05:22 PM
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Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
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Hi GTB

I'm glad you found this interesting and informative, again this was a basic introduction and there is more involved than meets the eye. I will add most of the info is gleaned from 30 years of collecting and being part of ASMIC and having mentors( 2 brothers) who have been collecting , researching interviewing writing articles from the 50's to today as well as other collectors who have extensive collections.

The 101st is an example of how confusing this field can get and is in no slight on you.
This patch is a 1950's manufactured and not WWII. It was manufactured by the same company in 1942 as it was into the 1960's. This type of patch has been documented on 1950's HBT uniforms when the 101st became an airborne div. in 1956.
A bit of history.The 101st was a Training Div. from 1948-1956 in which it wore NO TAB. This type of variation is different from WWII in the fact that it is a scribble eye, the reverse Airborne lettering is consistent with post WWII 1950's manufacturing style and the sizing was used by this manufacturer.
There were a few variations during this period(will scan more in the weekend).
Also note a army dark green cable which is consistent c1957 for HBT and new AG uniform(they also used black cable).
You will see this as sold as WWII on ebay and you will get collectors calling this WWII era. I received this along with others from one of the top airborne collector/historian as 1950's.

Like collecting Pegasus FS you have to be 100% certain that you are collecting WWII era and the only way is research, reading , making contacts and sharing knowledge.

The pigtail is a merrow edge process was developed in the 1890's , it was used on patches during and post WWII to stop fraying of the borders,they are rare but you get to see them , the most notable is 506th PIR during WWII. The reason why it was not used more was cost as the company had to buy the machine(s) and also mass production with the build up would of delayed the process of supply as each patch (which was hand cut to the edge) would of had to have been individually had the border added.

This was rectified in the mid 1960's when technology and cost was reduced. So time frame fro pigtail in modern terms is 1966 onwards.

Your 101st appears to be mid 80's or earlier and no it doesn't have to be displayed.

Phill
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  #24  
Old 03-10-17, 05:28 PM
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Hi Billy

Yes its a good beginners guide as it covers manufacturing technique used before and during WWII plus many variations.

I do have the book.

Phill
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  #25  
Old 03-10-17, 07:40 PM
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Hi Phil, it is a good book but trying to understand it in off itself without some other imput (other people explaining these in the hand) and getting a good foundation to grow into it, is difficult, need to have one with others involved in explaining them! All the best billy
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  #26  
Old 03-10-17, 07:58 PM
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Thanks again for all input.

I don't know if I'm seeing things but my 101st has vertical rows of weave and I believe this is associated with German manufacture?

A limited but helpful site on patches (albeit Space/NASA) that I stumbled on is www.crewpatches.com

Any remarks on this felt 13th Engineering Regt patch? In a totally different league from typical SSIs.

GTB
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  #27  
Old 04-10-17, 06:32 AM
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Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
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Hi GTB

Your 101st is US made fully embroidered merrow edge.

Whilst I don't have a German made 101st, I can show 3 examples of German made SSI. They are manufactured on German schiffli embroidery machines and have a very distinctive weave sometimes called "fruit loop" or "salt and pepper "look by collectors.
Note below is to highlight the weave and period made.

First US Airborne Army c 1945
10th Division Germany c 1955
Engineer Special Brigade c 1960's-70's.

Now compare to your 101st.

Your 13th Engineer(Railway) is known as a "Patch King" or collector club patch made during WWII and "made for the collector market."

This was based on a WWI design and has been well documented.

Collector clubs, and Patch King was the largest and well known, had patch's made (PK never made patches) and this is typical embroidered on felt with a open weave /cheese/gauze backing.

Billy yes you are correct prior to Hans book being published I have had many a discussion with a collector(s) who had interviewed people and had done a lot of home work and research on the schiffli embroidery process.

So I am very familiar with the history and how the operation had changed from the 1890-1950's. What we don't know is how the US , German and British distinctive weave was made because all the people have now passed and all the documentation has been lost.
I do have a book from the 60's (schiffli Embroidery Assoc.) which gives the history and manufacturing process ie the set up however that is getting right into the weeds.

Phill
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File Type: jpg FUSAA-1 Reverse.JPG (39.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 5. 10MTN(LT)-5.jpg (50.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 5. 10MTN(LT)-5 Reverse.jpg (61.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 6. ESB(1960-1970)-6.JPG (105.5 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 6. ESB(1960-70)-6 Reverse.JPG (97.9 KB, 2 views)
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  #28  
Old 04-10-17, 12:01 PM
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Great stuff. I am now looking at American patches with a more critical eye.

I read that the CICOM patch (coloured) is a rare one but no reason given as to why it is considered rare. Could you enlighten? Possibly as it may be a relatively low manpower unit? As such, I would expect it to be faked so can you please give mine a lookover?

GTB
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  #29  
Old 04-10-17, 04:52 PM
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Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
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Hi GTB

Not to sure why it would be considered as rare, maybe who ever mentioned it is rare could provide a specific answer. Its a basic standard US Army command SSI.

As far as I know the patch is typical 70's -80's SSI (1971-current).

Maybe the reverse red bobbin or catch thread is considered rare by some but for a modern patch?

Phill
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  #30  
Old 05-10-17, 05:27 AM
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Hi Phil am going to have to revisit this book and sort through these S.S.I. ,s I have aquired since putting into sleeves, it was WW2 items I was after but have a lot of pigtails now and a lot of Philippines made (copies ?) Could be for the collectors market also?

GTB as I go through these am going to uncover spares and ultimately copies within my main collection and spares, are you collecting SSI, s ? Will get in touch shortly all the best billy work!
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