Royal Fusiliers

[Jumbo]

I have silver/gilt/blue enamel Royal Fusiliers FS cap badge KC. At the centre bottom part of the ball of the grenade, immediately under the extending strap of the garter, is a small silver horse (of Hanover?). Can anyone tell me the significance of the horse to the Regiment
Thanks
Peter

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Jumbo

I have silver/gilt/blue enamel Royal Fusiliers FS cap badge KC. At the centre bottom part of the ball of the grenade, immediately under the extending strap of the garter, is a small silver horse (of Hanover?). Can anyone tell me the significance of the horse to the Regiment
Thanks
Peter

What a coincidence Peter,

See the thread in General Topics re " Davec and repairs ", I am just getting started on that particular badge and if it's for sale I would be very interested !

Dave.

PS, I believe the horse is only worn on the 7th Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers but it is also worn on several other Regimental head dress devices ?? why ??? I'm sure I have been told but as is usual with me, I have forgotten !!

[Jumbo]

Thank you Dave for your comments.
My badge is somewhat different to those shown in that the flames are similar to those of K&K 595 and 597 with lugs E-W, the garter is in blue enamel and the horse is a little smaller.
Sorry its not for sale. I have a fondness for things RF. My father joined the 4th C of L Bn. London Reg. RF. when he turned 18,5 months before WW1.
Cheers
Peter

[Peter Brydon]

I have read about the use of the white horse by the Royal Fusiliers somewhere but I cannot find the reference at the moment, I thought it was in an Appendix to Edwards ( Appendix 4 in the 6th Edition ) but that is not where it is.

I will continue to look for the reference.

P.B.

Good morning gentlemen,

From 1732 to 1749, the regiment appears to have been at Gibraltar. A book of military costumes in the Briish Museum shows the uniform of the privates in 1742 as red, faced with dark blue, and laced with white and red striped lace. Tall, blue mitre-shaped caps were worn with the rose and garter and the Hanover Horse in front, the latter badge not being worn by other fusilier corps at that time. These badges were recognised by the Royal Warrant of 1751, though the precise date originally adopted seems to be somewhat vague.

In, 'Chats on Military Curios', By Stanley C. Johnson, the following reference to the Hanover Horse appears:

'The fleeting horse, borne by the King's Own Hussars, the Fifth Dragoon Guards, and the Royal Fusiliers, is the white horse of Hanover, and was incorporated in the crests to remind us of services rendered against the Jacobites.'

Regards to all,

Peter

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Jumbo

Thank you Dave for your comments.
My badge is somewhat different to those shown in that the flames are similar to those of K&K 595 and 597 with lugs E-W, the garter is in blue enamel and the horse is a little smaller.
Sorry its not for sale. I have a fondness for things RF. My father joined the 4th C of L Bn. London Reg. RF. when he turned 18,5 months before WW1.
Cheers
Peter

Hello Peter ( Jumbo ),

It sounds like you have a cap badge and ' orasot ' has one in his London collection ( it is private though ), as for not being for sale, fair play to you, if you don't ask, you never get and I also have a liking for the Royal Fusiliers.

I read somewhere, and as always I cannot remember where but I'm sure King George 1st was instrumental in awarding the White Horse of Hanover to one of our Regiments but as for why, unless it was to do with a battle honour, I do not know.

All the best.

Dave.

OOPS....There you go, written while Peter J was writing his post ???

[Keith Blakeman]

One of these ?

[davec2]

Cheers Keith,

I really, really wanted to see another of these ??? what a beaut......

Dave.

[Jumbo]

Thank you all for your comments.
My badge is the same as that shown by Keith Blakeman.
In Colin Churchill's " History of the British Army Infantry Collar badge" on page 43 refers to the upright flame collars for QVC and the KC and QC patterns that followed, and that " The QC pattern was sealed 26 January 1956 for wear on the Nos 1 & 3 dress by the 8th (TA) Battalion" We do not know if this the applies to the badge illustrated by Keith.
Cheers
Peter

[Nobbysr]

I have a nice QVC version, if people are interested I can take some photos

rgd
Steve

[davec2]

I would like to see it Steve, after all, I am a masochist , so I've been told ??

All the best.

Dave.

Stumbled across this photo in my files the other day; taken during my last visit to the RF Regimental Chapel last year. Thought it might be of interest:

RF Horse of Hanover.jpgRF Horse of Hanover 2.jpg

Regards to all,

Peter

[RBJ MIlitaria]

Is this the badge ? I have one on a pre WW2 cap, still unsure what Territorial Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Good morning gentlemen,

From 1732 to 1749, the regiment appears to have been at Gibraltar. A book of military costumes in the Briish Museum shows the uniform of the privates in 1742 as red, faced with dark blue, and laced with white and red striped lace. Tall, blue mitre-shaped caps were worn with the rose and garter and the Hanover Horse in front, the latter badge not being worn by other fusilier corps at that time. These badges were recognised by the Royal Warrant of 1751, though the precise date originally adopted seems to be somewhat vague.

In, 'Chats on Military Curios', By Stanley C. Johnson, the following reference to the Hanover Horse appears:

'The fleeting horse, borne by the King's Own Hussars, the Fifth Dragoon Guards, and the Royal Fusiliers, is the white horse of Hanover, and was incorporated in the crests to remind us of services rendered against the Jacobites.'

Regards to all,

Peter

I happen to have been looking into the history of the 'White Horse of Hanover.' It is in fact the Silver Horse of Westphalia which, as a portion of the tripartite arms of Hanover, was used by the Elector as a personal badge. It was awarded as an honorary distinction to a handful of regiments for their service in the Jacobite Rebellion of 1715, for instance the 3rd Dragoons (later King's Own Hussars) and the 8th Regiment, both awarded the title of 'King's' at the same time.

However, since the 7th Royal Fusiliers were in the Mediterranean at the time, that cannot be the explanation for the presence of the White Horse emblem in their badge.

As Peter said back in 2012, it is more likely to stem from the White Horse that decorated the turn-up on the front of the cloth grenadier (i.e.'fusilier') caps worn by the whole regiment, as early as 1742 (The three fusilier regiments can claim to have had cap badges long before the rest of the infantry).

If the emblem was awarded to the 7th as an honorary distinction, it is not referred to in Cannon's 'Historical Record...' of 1839 which first mentions it under the Royal Warrant of 1751. This authorised the 7th Royal Fusiliers to display the White Horse alongside the regiment's 'ancient badge' on the regimental colour and "on the grenadier caps, the Rose within the Garter, as in the colours. White Horse and motto over it Nec aspera terrent."

By 1751, the presence of the White Horse as an emblem had proliferated greatly, being displayed on the colours and appointments of both cavalry and infantry, most notably on the caps of the grenadiers in each infantry regiment, perhaps to mark the final defeat of the Jacobite cause in 1746.

As a footnote, in 1766, after mounting guard at Windsor, the 14th Regiment (variously the Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire and eventually the West Yorkshire Regiment) were granted the privilege of retaining the White Horse on the plate of their bearskin grenadier cap when the cloth 'mitre' cap was superceded.

The White Horse fell out of favour during the Regency period. The arms of Hanover were removed form the Royal Arms in 1837 on the accession of Queen Victoria, who as a female could not succeed to the throne of Hanover.

There was, however, an extension of distinctive badge use in the years following the Crimean War and after 1881 the Royal Fusiliers (7th), the King's Regiment (8th) and the West Yorkshires (14th) retained the White Horse emblem through the Childers regimental reforms into the classic cap-badge era, each with a distinct origin and each displayed in a distinctive way.