British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum
ebay
'Badges/Patches' 'Militaria, Badges'    Medals

 Military Badges

 All British  WW1  WW2 WW1   WW2

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13-11-17, 08:08 PM
Roy's Avatar
Roy Roy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: A Shropshire lad in New Mexico
Posts: 3,013
Default 48th Shako Plate - good or bad?

Hi Gents,

Can I ask for view on this shako plate?

The seller say's genuine but I'm not so sure.

Any thoughts?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26330651675...84.m1436.l2649

Cheerio,

Roy
__________________
Collecting:

Shropshire Badges & Buttons.
British Militia Button.
Boer War Badges.
Lee-Speed Rifles.

My website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13-11-17, 08:37 PM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,865
Default

Hi Roy,
I think it is ok and shows good detail, obviously the issue of the two drill holes adjacent to the number is something any prospective buyer would have to consider, the fakes are usually quite heavy, if you are interested you may wish to ask what it weighs.
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13-11-17, 09:48 PM
Roy's Avatar
Roy Roy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: A Shropshire lad in New Mexico
Posts: 3,013
Default

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. Yes the holes certainly put me off. It's not much money right now, so will be interesting to watch.

Appreciate your comments Paul.

Cheerio,

Roy
__________________
Collecting:

Shropshire Badges & Buttons.
British Militia Button.
Boer War Badges.
Lee-Speed Rifles.

My website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14-11-17, 09:01 AM
Mercian's Avatar
Mercian Mercian is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 356
Default

I agree with Paul on all of what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14-11-17, 05:38 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1,538
Default

Roy, you could fill the wholes with braze and buff them down.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14-11-17, 06:21 PM
Roy's Avatar
Roy Roy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: A Shropshire lad in New Mexico
Posts: 3,013
Default

Hi Andy,

Thanks for that, a good suggestion but I think I will just let this one go and wait for an undamaged example. I'm in no rush.

Cheerio,

Roy
__________________
Collecting:

Shropshire Badges & Buttons.
British Militia Button.
Boer War Badges.
Lee-Speed Rifles.

My website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15-11-17, 05:39 AM
atillathenunns's Avatar
atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 1,021
Default

Chaps this is not my area of knowledge, but I am sceptical, as they say looks can be deceiving.
What I am seeing is a generic frame with a cut out 48?
My question is this common with surviving original 48th foot examples?
Pauls suggestion of weight is a good one, although many fakes of Victorian badges that I have seen show good reverse details but are much lighter compared with an original.
Can anyone provide a picture showing an original 48th badge of this pattern being worn?
Food for thought.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15-11-17, 06:58 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,865
Default

Hi,
Firstly, the sellers description is wrong on two counts, if is not a RIfle Volunteers plate (Roy noticed that already) and secondly it is not Shropshire but Northamptonshire.
Attila, I think finding an image of the plate being worn would probably mean a trip to the Regimental Museum. I can understand your caution, these were generic plates in every instance as stated in KK pg 106 for the Rank and File with the number cut out or stencilled within the garter, KK unfortunately only shows two examples of this type to the 1st and the 64th.
I am far from an expert with these but I have handled a few and with the fakes it's not just the weight but the stamping can fail to show good detail front and rear as the one linked does in certain areas,you do get a slight variation in some of the stencilled numbers but most of the time the fakes are a bit more obvious in style. The light on the image is not great but some traces of gilding remain to the reverse although I think most has been removed from the front,it does not look the usual coppery type found in repros.
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 15-11-17, 08:06 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,195
Default

Roy,
I think, from the photographs, that is original, however, it is certainly not a great example, you would be able to find a better one.
Regards Frank



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy View Post
Hi Gents,

Can I ask for view on this shako plate?

The seller say's genuine but I'm not so sure.

Any thoughts?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26330651675...84.m1436.l2649

Cheerio,

Roy
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15-11-17, 08:12 AM
atillathenunns's Avatar
atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 1,021
Default

Paul, if it was me looking at buying I would want to narrow the risks as much as possible, the problem is this is a well known badge frame that is extensively faked, they are currently for sale on Ebay either blank with no number or you "can have any number of your choice stamped in the centre between 1 and 99."

Sadly with modern technologies such as spin casting and CNC machining fine die struck detailing on fakes can be deceiving in photos but be obvious when you have them in hand that they are not right.

With the amount of collectors on this forum we must have a few pukka ones out there that we can compare the fakes with.

Brent
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 15-11-17, 09:01 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Paul, if it was me looking at buying I would want to narrow the risks as much as possible, the problem is this is a well known badge frame that is extensively faked, they are currently for sale on Ebay either blank with no number or you "can have any number of your choice stamped in the centre between 1 and 99."

Sadly with modern technologies such as spin casting and CNC machining fine die struck detailing on fakes can be deceiving in photos but be obvious when you have them in hand that they are not right.

With the amount of collectors on this forum we must have a few pukka ones out there that we can compare the fakes with.

Brent

Hi Brent,
If you look up eBay item no.332448268416 which is described as a good copy though if compared to the 48th in the OP there are a lot of differences to be seen, colour (coppery), the no.4,the garter buckle area and the fixing positioning to name a few.
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15-11-17, 09:19 AM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 807
Default

The plate looks ok to me , compared it with mine only 62nd and 99th in my collection now I have both officers and o r ' [some ex epworth trust collection sold in 1980 via Lt col Wood ,also from L .A , D .P and recently Bosleys ex K.R collection
David
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 15-11-17, 10:58 AM
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,354
Default

Is there a possibiity that, if a genuine badge, the holes have been drilled in order to attach a different central device?
I don't know what it would be, just wondering.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 15-11-17, 11:25 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Is there a possibiity that, if a genuine badge, the holes have been drilled in order to attach a different central device?
I don't know what it would be, just wondering.
A possibility Leigh, my first thought of the holes was that they had been made to nail on a display board. Their positioning does suggest a device may have been overlayed, maybe a Northamptonshire or Regt of Foot collector may know.
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 16-11-17, 09:20 AM
atillathenunns's Avatar
atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 1,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
A possibility Leigh, my first thought of the holes was that they had been made to nail on a display board. Their positioning does suggest a device may have been overlayed, maybe a Northamptonshire or Regt of Foot collector may know.
Paul
I too was hoping a learned Northamptonshire or Regt of Foot collector would join the discussion.

As mentioned the 48th Regiment is not my area of knowledge, but I am very interested in the following British Regiments that served in New Zealand – 12th, 14th, 18th, 40th, 43rd, 50th, 57th, 58th, 65th, 68th, 70th, 80th, 96th and 99th.
As a military headdress enthusiast I am interested in all badges worn by these regiments during the period of 1845 to 1870.

It is my understanding the generic frame as depicted in the “OP” was worn circa 1869 to 1878, so it is unlikely to have been worn here in New Zealand, however, the following picture of a shako belonging to Colonel Albert Jackson of the 18th Royal Irish Regiment of Foot is similar, I also have copies of group photos of both 18th Foot Officers and 18th Foot Ordinary Ranks wearing shakos with completely different badges to that of Colonel Jackson.



The following Shako belonged to Lieutenant F.P. Leonard of the 65th Regiment, it is this style of shako badge frame that was more commonly worn by British troops serving in New Zealand.



Surely someone on this forum must have some information or another example of the badge in the "OP" they can share?

Last edited by atillathenunns; 16-11-17 at 09:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:25 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.