British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum
ebay
'Badges/Patches' 'Militaria, Badges'    Medals

 Military Badges

 All British  WW1  WW2 WW1   WW2

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Airborne, Elite and Special Forces Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-11-17, 02:03 AM
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 153
Default Combined Operation specimens-Post war?

Hi all

I brought these as post WWII made CO FS. They are not WWII era.

However my question is were there any use for the design that was cancelled in 1946?

The only image we have is from 1949 Combined Operations website.However they could be WWII made.

http://combinedops.com/POST%20WW2%20...20-%20SUEZ.htm

The ones pictured are on dark navy blue wool and I believe schiffli embroidered, due to the return thread and the thread itself is not silk but rayon, which is not the normal thread used by British manufactured FS and cloth titles.

Not to sure if British textile manufacturing had other bobbin thread embroidery machines in the 40's-50's use for formation signs and cloth shoulder titles.

The backing cloth is thick,firm and pasted to the wool.

They do not glow.

Not to sure when polyester or nylon thread was introduced into British made FS.

All opinions welcomed

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20171112_0001.jpg (37.7 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20171112_0004.jpg (55.6 KB, 41 views)

Last edited by Phill Lockett; 12-11-17 at 06:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-11-17, 09:09 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 1,288
Default

Hi Phill
Very pleased you raised the question on here.
Although it may appear anachronistic to find the Combined Operations badge in use in 1949 I can not find any 'specific' reference to its wear in the RA Combined Operations Bombardment Unit concerned (in the image) and wonder if use could have been more widespread too. If so would this be semi-official.

As far as withdrawal is concerned - you are right, in so far as the only note I have being an Air Ministry Order:

AMO A 536/46 20/6/46
It was decided by the three service departments that, as in future, personnel may be attached for a tour of duty with Combined Operations as part of their normal service, it was not necessary to retain the Combined Operations badge in peacetime. With effect from 1 July 1946, the Combined Operations badge would no longer be worn by naval, military and RAF personnel.

This raises a couple of questions as you point out ...
What is happening in the image? is the date of the image correct?
See quote below (as a PS) ... I wonder if former service of the Commanding Officer (CO) in Combined Operations had any bearing? In terms of being an unofficial move by the CO

Looking forward to the thoughts of other members

Mike


PS - I think the illustrated link you attach has a couple of interesting passages:

In November 1947 four of us were posted to Malta to form a new Combined Operations Bombardment Unit (COBU) under the command of two officers who were already stationed on the Island. The officers had been in COBUs during the war seeing much action in Europe and the Far East.

and

(Photo opposite; annual inspection in 1949 taken in the car park at the Lascaris Signal Station in Malta. I'm wearing two stripes next to the two Naval Telegraphists. The Officer standing at the front of the Troop was Capt McQueen who retired as a Major General some years later. In 2004 I wrote him a letter and received a reply not long before he died. The other officer was Capt. Mann-Thomson who was the Commanding Officer. Both were in Combined Operations during the war.)

Last edited by Mike B; 12-11-17 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-11-17, 06:00 PM
Postwarden's Avatar
Postwarden Postwarden is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Garden of England
Posts: 1,826
Default

The following information taken from National Archives files DEFE2/992 and ADM 1/25158 sheds light on these badges and their use.

Jon

In December 1947 just twenty months after the Combined Operations badge was abolished because all peacetime service personnel might in future serve in Combined Operations Command and no longer be the specialists they had been in war, Combined Operations Headquarters asked for its reintroduction.

This proposal recognised that by 1947 the Army personnel of Combined Operations came from so many regiments and corps that reviving the sign for COHQ personnel, staff of the School of Combined Operations, Combined Operations Experimental Establishment and Combined Signal School in North Devon and for 267th Bombardment Battery, Royal Artillery would promote esprit de corps. It would however only be worn by soldiers as the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force did not wear such signs. The War Office approved its reintroduction for Army and Royal Marine battle dress in February 1948 with the proviso that it could be used by all three services if required.

With no supplies of wartime printed badges available COHQ approached George Kenning Ltd, manufacturers of the woven wartime badge to be told that as the badge design was Admiralty property it could only be supplied with their authority. Once obtained a School of Combined Operations letter announced its introduction in May 1948, its ‘background to be cut to form a circle three inches in diameter’.

In July 1953 the RAOC in Hong Kong queried with the War Office a request they had received to supply the Amphibious Warfare badge to naval personnel serving with 95th Amphibious Observation Regiment, RA. Created the previous year with 7th and 267th Amphibious Observation Batteries, this successor to the wartime Combined Operations Bombardment Units supplied shore spotting parties to observe and control fire from ships supporting amphibious operations. Enquiries revealed that in September 1949 it had been agreed that naval telegraphists would take over some communications roles in RA Bombardment Batteries, the Army issuing them with uniforms similar to that of the soldiers they worked alongside, 21 naval telegraphists serving with 95th Regiment, a further two with 18th Naval Beach Signal Section. Combined Operations HQ confirmed that no authority existed to issue the badge to the Royal Navy but a supply was obtained from an Army source after protracted negotiations. The 95th Regiment wore the badge on battle dress and in action on the Denison smock. A Territorial sub-unit of 95th Regiment, 881 (Amphibious) Observation Battery also wore the badge as did the Malta-based No 1 Headquarters Ship Signal Troop aboard the Royal Navy’s Amphibious Warfare headquarters ship HMS Meon. In 1960 95th Amphibious Regiment was retitled 95th Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-11-17, 06:31 PM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,659
Default

Jon, That's very interesting. However I believe the final sentence contains a number of factual errors - it was 95 AO Regt RA that converted to 95 Cdo Lt Regt RA and this happened in either late 1963 or early 1964. I was a founder member of 95 Cdo Lt Regt RA, joining from the RA YO's Course in late January 1964. Mike
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-11-17, 07:13 PM
54Bty's Avatar
54Bty 54Bty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 4,612
Default

From the records I have;

1952 Aug: RHQ reformed as RHQ 95th Amphibious Observation Regiment RA.
1962 Jan: redesignated 95th Commando Amphibious Observation Regiment RA.
1964 Mar: redesignated 95th Commando Light Regiment RA.
1971 May: reorganised as 95th Commando Forward Observer Unit RA
1977 Apr: Placed into Suspended Animation

Marc
__________________
I am still looking for badges from the Sultanate of Oman.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-11-17, 07:23 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 1,288
Default

Excellent information all round - many thanks for filling this gap (gaping chasm)in my knowledge - Really good to learn this - thanks too to Phill for raising the issue.
Looking forward to your book Jon ...
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-11-17, 08:29 PM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
From the records I have;

1952 Aug: RHQ reformed as RHQ 95th Amphibious Observation Regiment RA.
1962 Jan: redesignated 95th Commando Amphibious Observation Regiment RA.
1964 Mar: redesignated 95th Commando Light Regiment RA.
1971 May: reorganised as 95th Commando Forward Observer Unit RA
1977 Apr: Placed into Suspended Animation

Marc
Thanks. In February 1964, whilst on the Driving and Maintenance phase of the YO's Course run by the RA Wing at Bovington, I bumped into a group of members of 95 AO Regt (probably 148 AO Bty). They were unusually dressed - dark blue berets, black denim tanksuits with a black leather brassard bearing the EonF circular format Combined Operations sign. An RSM's delight I would have thought! Mike
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13-11-17, 04:30 AM
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 153
Default

Thank you Jon, Mike B, Mike Jackson,54 Bty for all your input.

Jon thank you for an indepth reply and the notes you have provided.

Whilst my area is WWII era(US now British , Canadian and more cloth!!), I do like to show a chronology of "patches" over the years and the changes in embroidered variations and the unit designation changes.

One part of our hobby that excites me is once I have the ID of a "patch"/formation sign, I go out and research the unit(s) history-what good is a patch/formation sign if all you do is ID it?

Note these are 7cm in diameter or 2.76 inches.

Again thanks to all.

Phill

Last edited by Phill Lockett; 13-11-17 at 04:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13-11-17, 11:06 AM
Postwarden's Avatar
Postwarden Postwarden is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Garden of England
Posts: 1,826
Default

Phil,

Happy to help. Nice to find a collector who looks into the background of the badges he buys.

Mike and Marc,
Thanks for correcting my mistakes on the regiment.

Jon
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.