Cambridgeshire Regiment badges

[magpie]

Martin the dark spots are where the lugs have been taken off and a slider put on inplace, The same for you as well keith with your braze marks .
Personally i'm with badges & orasot 100% on this

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by magpie

Martin the dark spots are where the lugs have been taken off and a slider put on inplace, The same for you as well keith with your braze marks .
Personally i'm with badges & orasot 100% on this

I'm not sure if you have ever tried taking off lugs or sliders, but I assure you the process would leave a lot more than black spots or braze marks!

Andy

[orasot]

Here's one that has had lugs removed and a slider fitted, this done in the Firmin workshop, guaranteed.
Wilf.

[magpie]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

I'm not sure if you have ever tried taking off lugs or sliders, but I assure you the process would leave a lot more than black spots or braze marks!

Andy

Would you say that to Dave c, Andrew?

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by badjez

Attached is an official WO photo of a Cambs Regt badge, passed by the censors on 10 Feb 1944. Note tht the 'e' is missing. I'm not sure that these badges can be considered as 'mistakes' or 're-strikes'. Certainly Andy's point that the slider was fixed wrong is questionable. Not every badge has the slider in the same place. Sometimes it depended upon who was doing the work.

It may just be another myth, but I have been told that the missing 'e' was used to remind the British public, Home Guard and ACF that whenever they looked at the badge something was missing from Cambridgeshire: i.e. the men of both battalions of the Cambridgeshire Regt who were prisoners of the Japanese. During WW2 the badge without the 'e' would only have been worn by HG and ACF post December 1941.

Stephen.

Odd that this was 1944 as the Plastic one was sealed in 1942 (with an e) so it is illogical that they then seled a bi-metal one before the end of the war.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by magpie

Would you say that to Dave c, Andrew?

Dave probably spends more time removing old braze or solder prior to repairs and then even more time cleaning afterwards!!! So it's not a simple task!!! I am still content with my theory that the fixing points are marked prior to fitting!

Andy

[Sonofacqms]

There are certainly lots of mystique and legends about badges, but as a collector of Cambridgeshire items, I have never heard the story of the missing "e" regarding the two missing Battalions. Stephen, this may be correct, but it is a story I have never heard.

The badge without the "e" appeared as I said in an earlier thread when the 1st Btn was stationed at Weeting Hall early on in the war before the Btn went overseas in late 1941. Interestingly I have heard that the plastic badge was issued around the same time although I have no evidence of this. The plastic badge pattern was sealed on 30th December 1942 after both btns were taken prisoner and I cannot think why a plastic badge was made for two Btns that did not exist only as prisoners of War.

As for slider positions, believe what you like, but my Father in Laws badge is the same as the one Alan has put up with the exception of the slider, which is in a slightly different position. I know this one is an original.

As for brazing spots, these may have been put as a guide on one badge to show the position of the lugs/slider, but to mark every badge before fitting the lugs/slider would have just been too time consuming.

What is put down on paper officially and what happens in reality in my opinion are two different things.

[orasot]

Let's not drag Dave into this, all we have here is a difference of opinions, I have mine & 2747Andy has his. He's not budging & neither am I, as we are entitled to do, but it's only opinions after all without any solid evidence so we could argue till we're blue in the face and not change a thing. As has been said before many a time, without a time machine to go back & find out, we'll never know for sure, not even any old fellas around to ask !!!! Sorry the original Cambridge thread got hijacked a bit !
Wilf.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

The plastic badge pattern was sealed on 30th December 1942 after both btns were taken prisoner and I cannot think why a plastic badge was made for two Btns that did not exist only as prisoners of War.

Home Guard and cadets would still be wearing them even when the 2 Bns were in captivity. In fact with these sort of units wearing them it reinforces why plastic ones would be so suitable.

Alan

[davec2]

I can comfortably step into this one because the situations I encounter are completely different to those being aired by Wilf and Andy P.

Firstly, despite what some might think, I wasn't around at the turn of the last century, so like everyone else, there is a certain amount of guesswork involved.

Doing what I do, isn't comparable to working, for instance, in Firmin's work-shop, I have a tin shed and a ' Brulee ' torch, another point is that I generally have to remove the stubs of cut off lugs or sliders and because I replace like for like without pretending otherwise, I don't muck about but go straight in with a mini-grinder, yes I know it's a moment but so far, so good !!

I have just sent a batch of badges to Aussie land which included nine Cadet badges that had not been previously lugged, on about seven were two very small circles that I took to be indicators of where the lugs should go, that was only one such example that I could use in a suggestion of pre-marking ??

Having worked in the vicinity of press-shops in the past, my history briefly, covers my first ' trade ' being glass-blowing but in my case it was scientific equipement or making Neon signs, this was a short career before I moved on to metal polishing ( about ten years ) and eventually, as a fabricator/welder, so, having worked near several press-shops, I could easily imagine a mark being left in the reverse stamp to ensure lugs/sliders were positioned correctly and no, I can't explain how that would work on the badges full of leaves and thistles etc, etc but certainly for a slider, yes.....

Without counter claiming Andy's remarks re spot brazing as an indication, I should imagine that if some-one was going to mark a badge with braze to show another fitter where to fix the lugs, it would be easier to fit said lugs at the same time, I personally have more trouble if a repair goes wrong and I have to reheat a badge a second time etc.....and the metal doesn't stand being heated too much either ??

That's my thoughts but as I so often say, what do I know ?? particularly when it comes to badges and/or the production of, anyone with flattened toes, I apologise, it was unintentional ??

Dave.

PS My apologies too for going off on a tangent having read the previous few threads, unless of course, someone sends me a Cambridge badge to repair ??

[Alan Y]

Hello Orasot & Davec2

Don’t worry about going off track a bit, I’ve found the thread fascinating so far. I don’t have a Cambridge badge to repair, but I do have a Leicestershire and wouldn’t hesitate sending it to Davec2 after I saw a similar one he had repaired for another member which was posted earlier today.

Regards Alan Y

[badjez]

Rob,

The first orders for plastic Cambs Regt badges were placed on 26.02.43. This is from the records at Kew.

Briefly responding to the brazing marks point: much work was undertaken by non-specialist labour during wartime. In Cambridge undergraduates were used to assemble radios etc, and I have read stories of whole day's production being ruined by these well-meaning, but incompetent workers. Why shouldn't similar things have happened during badge production?

Stephen.

['Ticker' Riley]

Gents

I have just got home to find the latest postings to this thread, and firstly would also like to apologise to Alan (Alan Y) for inadvertently carrying things off on a tangent somewhat! I still personally think that some valid points have been raised by all concerned regarding the positioning of sliders and the possible pre-marking of badges. To be honest magpie I did consider the possibility that the marks on the Uppingham badge were the remains of lugs that had been previously attached, but I too have seen examples of badges like Wilf’s Manchester one, which seems to have indeed had its original lugs taken off, and in the case of the Uppingham badge I showed this really is not the same at all. The small black marks on the Uppingham are merely that, and the only reasonable explanation I can see is that they are indeed ‘guide marks’ to help with the positioning of lugs rather than the residue of their removal. As I have not seen badges with the ‘braze spots’ Keith and Andy refer to I can’t comment on them, but I’m certainly happy the small black spots on the Uppingham were for lugs that were never fitted and that the slider on the badge is original and not a replacement. Now how common or widespread such marking out was is impossible to tell, especially, as Wilf says, without a time machine to take us back to see how things were done. Presumably though different circumstances would have prevailed at different times and with different manufacturers. War time production could well have been hurried, perhaps leading to more variation in the application of sliders and lugs, or even actually for the necessity to mark badges to ensure some kind of consistency of positioning?? All I can personally say is that, after comparison with other badges I have which have clearly had their lugs removed, I am happy that my Uppingham one is merely marked up for them but that a slider was fitted instead. Apologies again to Alan for taking things away from the topic of this thread, namely his Cambridgeshire Regiment badges.

Regards

Martin

[Sonofacqms]

Stephen, I have never dared to venture to Kew and I am in awe of those that have have perused those records. My information has been gleaned from the distant memories of veterans who sadly are now not with us.

The plastic Cambs badge has long been a mystery to me and as records show, it was made to be worn by the cadets and Home Guard. All the photographs I have studied all seem to show the bi-metal badge (the "e" not being visible), maybe they were not issued in great quantities. They remain one of the scarcest plastic badges.

By 1943, with most Home Guard units having been established by the end of 1940 one wonders why they needed a whole lot of plastic badges.

[badjez]

Rob,

Nothing to be scared of at Kew- if a dummy like me can find his way around anyone can!

Regarding the Cambs plastic badge:
26.02.43. Initial order for 17,488 placed with Combined Optical Industrial.
28.03.44. Second order placed with Mentmore for 9,471. Delivered 28.05.44.

No further record of orders being placed. Like you, I'm not sure why additional large numbers of badges would have been needed in 1943/44. Perhaps the WO were looking to provide sufficient future stocks for maintenance purposes.

Regards, Stephen.