IRA/INV Uniform

[Unknownsoldier]

Hi Guys,

Just looking for some info, I have a pic of my Great grandfather aged 14 as an Irish Volunteer (we believe he became a lieutenant, and there is note a Patrick "
Paddy" Mullally was captured in 1922 leading an IRA column.... he was born same time and county as my g-grandad but who knows...).

Can anyone tell me his chest insignia and uniform please, plus any help with research would be great

Tom

[John Mulcahy]

The uniform in that photo does not look like an INV uniform, rather a National Army uniform. Did he join the Free State Army formed in early 1922 after the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty
?

To the best on my knowledge the badge on the chest is unofficial.

John

[Unknownsoldier]

Hi,

I am going by family legend, (the age on the back was written by my now deceased grandmother, in the early 2000s), that he was a volunteer, possibly her thoughts when he was 14? And we have a military truncheon (there was also a webley revolver lost from family hands many many moons back), liberated from a Black and Tan, which has been corroborated by other family members... he then did some stuff in Ireland (family lore goes sketchy), and then moves to England and lives near Salop on a farm if memory serves.... I have the truncheon still a wooden one filled lead by the weight of it, and stamped MP (Military Police??) He wasn't proud of his irish service if I remember rightly....

I wondered if the badge on his chest might have been the circular volunteers lapel badge?? Which he wore as a sort of "distinction", theres few irish army websites I can find to help

Tom

[John Mulcahy]

Tom

as a starting point you might try Irish Military Archives. The 1922 census is on line which may be fruitful regarding your ancestor. Otherwise there are contact details you can use to determine if he served with the National Army (so-called Free State Army)

link

http://www.militaryarchives.ie/

if this does not yield rewards I have some friends who have written on the subject of the Volunteers who may be willing to advise you on how best to do your research. Let me know if you need to follow this up if the archives do not yield anything.


John

[ebro]

Tom,
I also think it is a Free State Army uniform. Many of the members of the new Free State Army (1922) had been Irish Volunteers and/or IRA.
Eddie

[GriffMJ]

Hope this helps...

[Unknownsoldier]

Brilliant guys thanks

Tom

[engr9266]

Try this web site:- http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com...tal_index.html

[mule-73k]

The uniform is that of the Irish National Army 1922-1923 period. The breast badge may be that of the Supply Service being a wheel with crossed key and quill. When out of service about 1924.

Most Webelys were 'liberated' from the R.I.C. stations, some came from ambushes from the captured prisoners and dead soliders and policemen, very, very few came from the incorrectly named the Black and Tans. These were tough men all former army officers from WW1, many were decorated for bravery during the war. Though known as the Auxilliery Division of the R.I.C. they were independant of the police and indeed the army for most of their time here. So would be hard to prove the gun, but not impossible.

The term volunteer could mean that he was an Irish National Volunteer as were about 140,000 other men in 1914, many joined the British Army during the war. It could also mean that he was a republican volunteer. He looks quite young, so I think he may of taken part in the War of Independance as a volunteer. Do you know what part of the country he came from?

The Dublin Metropolitan Police used a lead cored batton.

Dave

[Eddie Parks]

In point of fact the "Black and Tans" - named after a well known fox hunt - were mainly ex-soldiers recruited in England to boost the strength of the regular RIC after many Catholic members of the force resigned due to intimidation. They were so named because for a short while they were issued with a mixture of army khaki and police rifle green uniforms. They performed normal police duties and were stationed in normal police "barracks"

The Auxiliary Division, the Auxies, Tudor's Toughs, were ex-officers recruited as Auxiliary Cadets in the RIC. They operated in separate companies under their own officers. They were never independent of the police and nor were they part of the army. They were highly effective and even Michael Collins - the Big Man - admitted they came close to defeating the IRA. Many subsequently joined the Palestine Gendarmerie and then the Palestine Police.

Eddie

PS - edited to point out that by "ex-soldiers" I mean ex-other ranks as opposed to ex-officers

[Unknownsoldier]

Originally Posted by mule-73k

The uniform is that of the Irish National Army 1922-1923 period. The breast badge may be that of the Supply Service being a wheel with crossed key and quill. When out of service about 1924.

Most Webelys were 'liberated' from the R.I.C. stations, some came from ambushes from the captured prisoners and dead soliders and policemen, very, very few came from the incorrectly named the Black and Tans. These were tough men all former army officers from WW1, many were decorated for bravery during the war. Though known as the Auxilliery Division of the R.I.C. they were independant of the police and indeed the army for most of their time here. So would be hard to prove the gun, but not impossible.

The term volunteer could mean that he was an Irish National Volunteer as were about 140,000 other men in 1914, many joined the British Army during the war. It could also mean that he was a republican volunteer. He looks quite young, so I think he may of taken part in the War of Independance as a volunteer. Do you know what part of the country he came from?

The Dublin Metropolitan Police used a lead cored batton.

Dave

Hi,

Interesting, he was from Wexford iirc, although I will have to check. I can post a pic of the truncheon.

Tom

[Unknownsoldier]

Originally Posted by engr9266

Try this web site:- http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com...tal_index.html

Great thanks I'll have a nose around.


Tom

[jembo]

Originally Posted by Eddie Parks

In point of fact the "Black and Tans" - named after a well known fox hunt - were mainly ex-soldiers recruited in England to boost the strength of the regular RIC after many Catholic members of the force resigned due to intimidation. They were so named because for a short while they were issued with a mixture of army khaki and police rifle green uniforms. They performed normal police duties and were stationed in normal police "barracks"

The Auxiliary Division, the Auxies, Tudor's Toughs, were ex-officers recruited as Auxiliary Cadets in the RIC. They operated in separate companies under their own officers. They were never independent of the police and nor were they part of the army. They were highly effective and even Michael Collins - the Big Man - admitted they came close to defeating the IRA. Many subsequently joined the Palestine Gendarmerie and then the Palestine Police.

Eddie

Thought you might like to see this.
Jembo
http://www.theirishstory.com/2013/04...#comment-16003

[Eddie Parks]

Yes Well ...

The problem is that the book the site is talking about is "Running with Crows" described by the author as "historical fiction". She also refers to the main protagonist as a "Black and Tan auxiliary" which is a contradiction in terms (see my post above).

The site then goes on to use a very well known photograph of three Auxiliaries to illustrate a piece about a Black and Tan. More confusion upon more confusion. I do so wish that authors would leave the subject alone when they know nothing about it.

I'd leave it on the shelf if I was you, there are many better books about the period.

Eddie

[mule-73k]

Hi Eddie,

Agree with most of what you have said except that the 'Auxies' were indeed very independant of the regular R.I.C. They did not trust the local R.I.C. who did not want them in their area at all. The 'Auxies had their own officers, ranks, and kept their uniform distinct from the regulars, wearing balmoral headdress and 'tams' many of their officers wearing army uniforms even after most of the rank and file had been kitted out in the the R.I.C. bottle green, running their own operation against the republicians, and not being accountable to R.I.C officers. I have great admiration for them and think them to have been very brave and effective men.

The term 'barracks' is correct for the R.I.C. as all single men lived in, in the station. This tradition only began to go out of fashion in the late '70 and early '80's in the Garda, believe it or not!

Regards,

Dave