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  #16  
Old 03-01-18, 12:40 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Smile Wear and tear

Now when I started work in the printing industry a million light years ago when type was still being hand-set, after a printing run often the type would be cleaned and stored for further printing. After many such "print runs" the last result compared to the first would often show remarkable differences with wear to the type being evident.

Now I have never been involved in the production of cap badges or any other badge, but I would imagine the effects of wear and tear would be much the same, so when you look at the sharpness of a badge it may have been an early produced item or one that came off the production line later.

Just a thought . . !

Rob
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  #17  
Old 03-01-18, 12:54 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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As mentioned before by Sean, I believe a restrike to be a badge made on original dies after the period of use of the badge is long past.
A badge made by somebody from non-original dies is a fake, whether made to deceive or just for re-enactors or souveniers.
Both are terrible for our collecting.
My 2c worth...
Cheers,
Alex
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  #18  
Old 03-01-18, 01:21 PM
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Default the art of hobbing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
...
Now I have never been involved in the production of cap badges or any other badge, but I would imagine the effects of wear and tear would be much the same, so when you look at the sharpness of a badge it may have been an early produced item or one that came off the production line later.

Just a thought . . !

Rob
The words to note are "hobbing", "hub" and "die".

reference from:
http://www.engravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1458
part of a message posted by "Tom Maringer" on 25-3-2008:

...
When I job out die engraving I will usually supply the die blank, which is turned on a lathe with a flat base and flat top, sometimes necked down, sometimes with a hobbed image in the center, and sometime already rimmed on the lathe. That leaves the "field" for the engraver to work with.

Hobbing is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of traditional diesinking. For that reason it has been my especial study, even moreso than engraving. (because I know there are lots of people who know engraving and I can learn it whenever I want, but the number of people who know hobbing is fewer every day).

The idea is that, counter to intuition, annealed tool will flow like soft copper IF YOU PUSH ON IT HARD ENOUGH. So you can make a design in the positive, and PRESS it into the annealed tool steel blank to make and impression. Then you turn down the face, bring the (now distorted) die blank back to cylindrical, and add other design features. The detail that is possible is really quite incredible with this techique. It is safe to say that the majority of old-time die engravers spent much more time working on master hubs (which would then be used to press out dies) than they did working directly on the dies in the negative.
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  #19  
Old 03-01-18, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btns View Post
The words to note are "hobbing", "hub" and "die".

reference from:
http://www.engravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1458
part of a message posted by "Tom Maringer" on 25-3-2008:

...
When I job out die engraving I will usually supply the die blank, which is turned on a lathe with a flat base and flat top, sometimes necked down, sometimes with a hobbed image in the center, and sometime already rimmed on the lathe. That leaves the "field" for the engraver to work with.

Hobbing is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of traditional diesinking. For that reason it has been my especial study, even moreso than engraving. (because I know there are lots of people who know engraving and I can learn it whenever I want, but the number of people who know hobbing is fewer every day).

The idea is that, counter to intuition, annealed tool will flow like soft copper IF YOU PUSH ON IT HARD ENOUGH. So you can make a design in the positive, and PRESS it into the annealed tool steel blank to make and impression. Then you turn down the face, bring the (now distorted) die blank back to cylindrical, and add other design features. The detail that is possible is really quite incredible with this techique. It is safe to say that the majority of old-time die engravers spent much more time working on master hubs (which would then be used to press out dies) than they did working directly on the dies in the negative.
Unless I’m being particularly dull, that’s not explained anything to me about what a restrike is (in my search of a definition).
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  #20  
Old 03-01-18, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanhath View Post
Unless I’m being particularly dull, that’s not explained anything to me about what a restrike is (in my search of a definition).
I would simply say as before Sean. An item that would not be issued. IMO.
Andy
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  #21  
Old 03-01-18, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanhath View Post
Unless I’m being particularly dull, that’s not explained anything to me about what a restrike is (in my search of a definition).

My message does not explain a restrike.
A restrike is a production run for another party from the original dies. Restrikes not necessarily date from after the End Of Life of a badge. It is also quite common for dealers to negociate extra badges on top of the number ordered by the customer during the first run or even trial runs.


My message does tell you that a worn out badge may be older than a crisp badge.
Dies are tools. When worn out they are replaced by hobbing: making new dies (female dies) from the master hub (or male die)


https://books.google.nl/books?id=hyQ...%20hub&f=false

Due to additional work carried out on dies from the same hub, the products from both dies may be slightly different.

Here is a list of hubs currently on e-bay. They are both French and English hubs.
The UK seller has sold badge hubs.


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...n+die&_sacat=1

Do you want more bad news?
Dealers also show up when a customer orders dies and a pre production run for all proposed designs. Badges from the losing designs start their own life in the collectors' world. Sometimes even restrikes are ordered.

Happy new year and happy collecting.
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  #22  
Old 03-01-18, 06:52 PM
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Thanks for your reply. I was having a blonde moment!
On the subject of rejected dies making it out into the open market - I’ve seen a few badges that have done exactly that.
One such example is now online (no on flea bay either) at £80!
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  #23  
Old 04-01-18, 10:16 AM
mac mcconnell mac mcconnell is offline
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Default Restrtike

Sean
I go with your interpretation the old dies and moulds being used but often the case the final attention to detail is lacking or different when I say different I mean the final fixings overlays ect ect.
Lance cap plates have been done to death and now are so old it is hard to spot the fakes but as they say provenance is everything. A good understanding of construction is also just as important as I learnt from a friend when I first started out.
By the way as a 17th/21st Lancer I spent many drinking hours in Munster's Dallas Bar with the Mick Guards and had a fun time with them in Canada great bunch of Lads.

Best Mac
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  #24  
Old 04-01-18, 09:33 PM
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The Dallas bar! Wow, that name brings back memories - Luft bar, Rosies, and the Llandsman?
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  #25  
Old 04-01-18, 09:37 PM
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Didn't the Dallas Bar get burnt down ?
Andy
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  #26  
Old 04-01-18, 10:09 PM
mac mcconnell mac mcconnell is offline
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Default Dallas

Its a Carpark now............gutted spent hours there billy ginn, yogi, crow some of the names I remember Colin Fitzpatrick he was a big guy, I went on RR in Canada with the provo Cpl but I cant remember his name

Best Mac
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  #27  
Old 04-01-18, 10:34 PM
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Good bloke Colin, he taught me to drive the Warrior.
Andy
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  #28  
Old 05-01-18, 12:50 AM
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We must’ve been to different Dallas bars!? Nothing burnt down when I was there.
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  #29  
Old 05-01-18, 07:17 AM
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Default dallas

Your right Sean it stood proudly for all my time which saw you guys hand over to the Grenadiers I left in December 1991 for two years in the UK.I remember drinking in the Landsman towards the end of my tour so I think the Dallas was closed by then.

Mac
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  #30  
Old 05-01-18, 01:53 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btns View Post
My message does not explain a restrike.
A restrike is a production run for another party from the original dies. Restrikes not necessarily date from after the End Of Life of a badge. It is also quite common for dealers to negociate extra badges on top of the number ordered by the customer during the first run or even trial runs.
Maybe I'm not enough of a purist but if I had a badge made on an original run of badges for an army order, I'd be quite happy to have it in my collection and would consider it an original badge, just not issued.
Cheers,
Alex
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