Leinster Regiment helmet plate-unusual fixings - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Terra Nova · #1 19-05-14, 01:10 AM

This nice looking gilt and silver QVC helmet plate of the Leinster Regiment has a rather involved series of screw posts and wheels with which it is held together and for attaching to a helmet that I've not seen before. Looking at the reverse, there are four 15 mm long screw posts in the N, S, E and W positions. Attaching the large overlay to the backplate are four more short screws with tapered ends that clear the retaining wheels by 1 mm. These are in the NW, NE, SW and SE positions. One final short post and wheel combination secures the silver centre overlay to the backplate. The posts are 2 mm wide.

So the question is, is this a good piece or a better copy? Your thoughts, please and thank you.

all the best,

Tim

wright241 · #2 19-05-14, 07:02 AM

In my opinion, its been doctored in some way. Every single one of the 20 odd officers HP's that I have, has exactly the same construction at the rear as the one I have provided a picture of. Although I don't have a Leinster version, I am not so sure about the finish on yours. As the back looks very "non-standard", I would question the front as well due to all the the additional screw posts - which I would have expected (due to heat) to have been affected. This implies that it has been re-gilded as well. Hard to tell from the picture. Maybe "Leinster" ones had special helmets drilled out to take all those posts....
The one thing I would say is that officers badges - in general - were very well finished and have good signs of being made to a high quality standard.
Having a look at the MG badge in Andy's link should give you a good idea of what to expect with regard to the quality finish on "any" officers badge... There are no pointers, it has it or it doesn't. If I were you, I would have a good look through the many albums and it will become very obvious as to what looks the part and what doesn't. Good luck
David

PS: I can't even see where the central device is attached on the one you have posted.

cavalryman · #3 19-05-14, 07:31 PM

hi tim, the only difference I can see on the front of my QVC OFFICERS HELMET PLATE 1881-1901 is the small crown on the prince of wales's feathers has been gilded, where as you example has no gilding there. I don't understand what's going on at the rear though and I have 5 examples of these plates none of them have the same style of fixings as yours, these "wheel type" things are common on officers pouch belt plates but I have never seen them on a helmet plate. I wouldn't go so far as to say you have a fake but the back is definitely odd. regards john

ANGLE IRON · #4 19-05-14, 07:50 PM

I have one plate to the DLI with screw post fittings, I think it may be a variation although I understand that these officers helmet plates were sometimes placed on a Sabretache, Kevin

alan g · #5 19-05-14, 08:08 PM

I have seen one similar on eBay and thought it was modern, I have never seen these fixings on a genuine plate
Regards
Alan

mule-73k · #6 19-05-14, 11:29 PM

Hi Tim,
I have to be honest and say I have alarm bells ringing on this one. I have never seen one with those fittings before or done in that way. I have seen and have h/plates with screw fittings on the rear, all have 3 post E, W and N and are reasonably large in size. It seems to lack the quality that usually goes with these h/plates.

Hard to be sure from just a photo, but I would have some reservations.

Happy to be proven wrong and learn something new!

Regards,

Dave

wright241 · #7 20-05-14, 06:57 AM

I have a few sabretache devices, but none like this and I am not sure that using these HP's (especially with the crown depth) would have withstood much abuse. In fact I have never seen a HP of this type ever used as such.
The more I have compared it with the ones I have, it just doesn't look so good.
Every single officers version I have, uses pins/wire to secure the central device (as a minimum), so that aspect alone rules it out for me.
David

wright241 · #8 20-05-14, 12:57 PM

terranova,
You may wish to look through the forum posts about an upcoming auction that has been mentioned. There are many officers helmet plates at this venue - along with pictures of the backs. These might convince you about the point I was trying to make.
David

Terra Nova · #9 21-05-14, 01:48 AM

Thank you, Gentlemen, very much for your thoughts. I agree with you that I've never seen a HP with such an elaborate system of attachments. On one suggestion, I did compare the nut and threads with a known to be correct pouch badge - absolutely identical.

It's hard to plumb the mysterious workings of the reproduction or fake producer's mind if his intent was to mislead, which one has to assume it would be. He would have stood a better chance making it past the initial questions had he just stayed with the far simpler "standard" attachments instead of the most labour-intensive and elaborate mounting system that I've seen for this type of insignia. A pity that such talent has been wasted!

I am greatly obliged to each of you for your insights.

Tim

2747andy · #10 21-05-14, 04:57 AM

Tim,
I am not a HP collector, however the badge you show, looks exceptionally well made to me! The numerous screw posts and nuts are unusual however the majority appear to be holding the various sections of the badge in place, with only the longer ones for fitment to the headdress? Those who have already replied are far more experienced in the HP field and I would not for one minute discount their advice, however I would not be too hasty to label it as fake either?

Andy

Phil2M · #11 21-05-14, 09:13 AM

Badge collecting isnt black and white, imo. There are four fixings to hold on the wreath and one in the middle to hold on the central device. To me that doesn't seem excessive. As you said its not logical for a faker to make the hp like that. I think it was likely official but perhaps used in an obscure way somewhere.

Terra Nova · #12 22-05-14, 02:01 AM

Thank you, Andy and Phil2m, for your thoughts. I agree, there is no black and white with so many variations and I certainly can't assert that "I've seen it all." These days, it is well for us to be cautious, with so many bogus items about which are set as snares to catch the unwary or inexperienced - and even the skilled.

If it is a fake as some have suggested, the fakers have really "upped their game," as is quite possible with dedicated application and technological advances. It is, in some ways, of superior construction, detail and finish than almost all of the "certain" originals that I have in my collection. Yikes!-another minefield to watch out for!

I sincerely appreciate the inputs on all sides of this fascinating discussion.

Best to all,

Tim