An explanation . . !

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

He was a dealer ( and member of Crown Imperial ) who used to sell items on commission for customers ( Harveys List ). The list was later taken over by Roy Wilson until he sadly died and I am not sure if in fact it is still going as it was eventually taken over by a gentleman from York.

At least one well known dealer used to a acquire a lot of his new stock from Harveys List.


P.B.

Hello Peter

I remember Harvey's list well and purchased quite a number of very nice items from it at reasonable prices.

I became a list member when Roy Wilson was running it. He was a really nice chap, and his death through the big 'C' was sad.

It was Ray Spowage that took over the list, but in the end the list folded some years ago (5 or 6 I think?) many due to the internet.

The list only had about a 100 members and that obviously had its limitations, unlike world markets where higher prices could be achieved.

I have kept all my old lists for reference and they are a reminder of the days when you could get a lot more for your money than now

Rob

[Donny B.]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Whoops!

Peter,
Not heard of this Gentleman before, could you enlighten us please!

Best regards

Andy

Just a bit of history.

I have noticed that Reg Harvey's name has appeared on the Forum a few times in the past. In fact there was a thread started on 30 April 2011, enquiring about Geoff Newman, (I wish I knew how to attach links to other posts) which developed into a rather nostalgic recollection of early dealers. Reg Harvey's activities were discussed pretty well as part of that thread. Your contribution to that thread, Andy, was the recollection of your dealings with Jim Hankin.

I Man

[49lassiepen]

Hi the person who issued the lists after Roy Wilson was Roy Spowage [g1098 on ebay] Reg Harvey was very very vocal regarding restrikes/fakes He had some very nice items in his collection

[AndyC_65]

Originally Posted by Donny B.

Just a bit of history.

I have noticed that Reg Harvey's name has appeared on the Forum a few times in the past. In fact there was a thread started on 30 April 2011, enquiring about Geoff Newman, (I wish I knew how to attach links to other posts) which developed into a rather nostalgic recollection of early dealers. Reg Harvey's activities were discussed pretty well as part of that thread. Your contribution to that thread, Andy, was the recollection of your dealings with Jim Hankin.

I Man

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ghlight=Hankin

[Warstone]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Reg Harvey used to say" there is an argument that sealed pattern badges are the only genuine ones and all others are copies "

P.B.

The British Military Badge Company wins a tender contract from MoD Abbey Wood to supply 150,000 type 4B Pongo Pranksters cap badges.

The "sealed pattern" design is agreed, a die set sunk and BMBC strikes 43,217 as a first run.

The die then smudges and needs to be resunk as it's now blurry. Old Jimmy makes a new die (with minute variants, picked over ad nauseum by future armchair experts).

Another 65,951 are struck on the second run and again a new die has to be produced. With minute variations, as Young Harry, Old Jimmy's apprentice makes it.

Die 3 completes the contract.

Are the badges on runs 2 & 3 copies, as they didn't come from the 'original' die? Or are they all originals despite coming from 3 dies with minute variants?

23 months later BMBC strike another 15,000 as a top-up for Abbey Wood (an official purchase). Are these restrikes, as they were not part of the original order or issue?

As there are 3 dies, if 2 are copies does that make them fakes?

[2747andy]

This thread is over complicating the issue, 150,000 is a totally unrealistic number!

From my understanding in times gone by a badge goes out to tender with a pattern as a guide! For those badges that were worn over a prolonged period there could have been and were several manufacturers supplying genuine badges. An original Master die would have been made and this would have been used to produce new dies when the active dies wore out!

During a badge's lifetime (period of wear) there would have been many production runs, these would not have been Restrikes just new batches!

As soon as a badge becomes obsolete (the unit no longer exists) or a new material is introduced, then that die also could be termed as obsolete!

The term Restrike was born c.1970s to describe a badge that was possibly produced from an obsolete die after the unit had ceased to exist or had been superseded by a similar badge but from a different metal, i.e. Anodised.

It is my strong belief that those who gave rise to this this term, "Restrike" did so with the firm belief that old/obsolete dies were being widely used to produce badges that had become obsolete some fifteen or so years earlier, where in fact this probably was not happening and the post 1970s repros that now abound were and still are pure and simple "Fakes"!

Restrike has since been used and abused to add some false provenance to badges which are nothing but reproduction or in layman's terms "Fake", these allegedly Restruck badges have differences, some more subtle than other to the genuine in period struck badges! As long as people continue to use the term "Restrike" they give some false provenance to what probably are nothing but tens of thousands of fakes!

Face up to it, genuine is genuine! Copies such as the Birmingham Mint series of badges are just that "Copies" anything else is fake or in a very few cases reproduced!

Until we as a collective have the backbone to accept that the term Restrike was a total misnomer, which has been hijacked by unscrupulous sellers ever since to peddle their fakes, that it will still hold some credence! please, please, please stop using this totally inaccurate reference! Fake, copy or even reproduction but please not Restrike!

Andy

[badger123]

Warstone,

I don't think the badges on runs 2 and 3 are copies, just part of an original order (or subsequent extension to that order) which could be classed as legitimate badges intended to be used by the army/regiment etc.

As Andy says, these would be just new batches and not restrikes or copies. In fact, I think Andy's summarisation is spot on and although we may have a joke at his expense about the phrase 'restrike' I think his explanation is spot on.

Andy,

I think the unrealistic figure of 150,000 was just used as an illustration that more than one die could be used for a particular order. I am sure Warstone speaks from experience and I think he gives a good idea as to how variations could come about.

I for one look forward to seeing the Pongo Prankster badges on ebay and the subsequent discussion about their originality!

Ivan

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by badger123

Andy,

I think the unrealistic figure of 150,000 was just used as an illustration that more than one die could be used for a particular order. I am sure Warstone speaks from experience and I think he gives a good idea as to how variations could come about.

I for one look forward to seeing the Pongo Prankster badges on ebay and the subsequent discussion about their originality!

Ivan

Ivan,
I've had a look in K&K and cannot seem to find this badge, it must be some a foreign Unit?

I understand the point Warstone is trying to put across, but there would have been very little variance between dies, as the live dies would have been produced from the Master which was probably not used to strike badges?

I admit that some genuine dies could have and did fall in to the hands of the Fakers, these were probably the discarded or worn live dies and could explain why many repros have faults or areas of wear on what looks otherwise a brand new badge? The key is that these badges were struck post obsoletion and not in the majority of cases "officially", therefore falsely - "Fake".

Andy

[Warstone]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

I understand the point Warstone is trying to put across, but there would have been very little variance between dies, as the live dies would have been produced from the Master which was probably not used to strike badges?

I admit that some genuine dies could have and did fall in to the hands of the Fakers, these were probably the discarded or worn live dies and could explain why many repros have faults or areas of wear on what looks otherwise a brand new badge? The key is that these badges were struck post obsoletion and not in the majority of cases "officially", therefore falsely - "Fake".

Andy

Master dies (known as hobs) are only produced when there is an anticipation of a volume run or that the item will be repeatedly re-ordered. Shorter runs have hand sunk dies with resulting variants when (if) they are replicated, as they are being done by hand (or pantograph).

There have been studies made of dies produced from Masters' anyway which concluded they will are be minutely different.

'Abstract

Comparisons of impressions found in metal, with steel marking stamps suspected of having made those impressions, have normally been based on accidental damage or wear features found on the stamp in question. Fifty steel marking stamps were produced from the same die or hob, and examined to determine if defects present on the face of each stamp could be attributed to the die that produced them or were, in fact, unique to each stamp. The results indicate that the steel from which the stamp is manufactured plays an important role in the final formation of the character. Fine striations present on the surface of the blank stamp are not completely lost when the blank is pressed into the die, and leave fine defects in the completed stamp, unique to that stamp. The study indicates that even when confronted with almost brand new stamps, a toolmark expert can confidently exclude other stamps from having produced the impressions being examined.'

Steel Marking Stamps. Their Individuality at the Time of Manufacture
T.M. Van Dijk

So, with the best will in the world, badges will show variants for numerous reasons through the manufacturing process.

some genuine dies could have and did fall in to the hands of the Fakers, these were probably the discarded or worn live dies

S Morris of 184 Gravelly Lane, B23 5SN is a prime example of this, producing thousands of J R Gaunt copies over the past few decades, from dies that were supposed to have be kept in sealed skips in Firman's Shillcock Grove yard until the scrapman removed them (this was in 1991). Having bought them for a £50 backhander so that the yardman developed vision problems for the afternoon, Morris went on to do as many journey's in his vehicle as he could in the time given, removing hundreds of dies and eventually duping many people. [If you think this is incorrect Mr Morris, you know where I work. Feel free to sue me].

[badger123]

Very interesting Warstone.

I'm glad the story of how Gaunt copies are still being produced is being made available to others.

I also appreciate your openness in naming a prolific faker of badges, I don't know if Mr Morris is a member of this forum but if he is, maybe he should tell us more about his business in Gravelly Hill?

Ivan

Originally Posted by Warstone

Master dies (known as hobs) are only produced when there is an anticipation of a volume run or that the item will be repeatedly re-ordered. Shorter runs have hand sunk dies with resulting variants when (if) they are replicated, as they are being done by hand (or pantograph).

There have been studies made of dies produced from Masters' anyway which concluded they will are be minutely different.

'Abstract

Comparisons of impressions found in metal, with steel marking stamps suspected of having made those impressions, have normally been based on accidental damage or wear features found on the stamp in question. Fifty steel marking stamps were produced from the same die or hob, and examined to determine if defects present on the face of each stamp could be attributed to the die that produced them or were, in fact, unique to each stamp. The results indicate that the steel from which the stamp is manufactured plays an important role in the final formation of the character. Fine striations present on the surface of the blank stamp are not completely lost when the blank is pressed into the die, and leave fine defects in the completed stamp, unique to that stamp. The study indicates that even when confronted with almost brand new stamps, a toolmark expert can confidently exclude other stamps from having produced the impressions being examined.'

Steel Marking Stamps. Their Individuality at the Time of Manufacture
T.M. Van Dijk

So, with the best will in the world, badges will show variants for numerous reasons through the manufacturing process.

some genuine dies could have and did fall in to the hands of the Fakers, these were probably the discarded or worn live dies

S Morris of 184 Gravelly Lane, B23 5SN is a prime example of this, producing thousands of J R Gaunt copies over the past few decades, from dies that were supposed to have be kept in sealed skips in Firman's Shillcock Grove yard until the scrapman removed them (this was in 1991). Having bought them for a £50 backhander so that the yardman developed vision problems for the afternoon, Morris went on to do as many journey's in his vehicle as he could in the time given, removing hundreds of dies and eventually duping many people. [If you think this is incorrect Mr Morris, you know where I work. Feel free to sue me].

Most interesting, and I thank you kindly for the information.

Regards,

Marcus