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  #1  
Old 12-09-17, 11:50 AM
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Default Which Rifles regiment?

Hello,

I would be very grateful for any views on the unit pictured in the attached photographs. I have one or two ideas, but nothing concrete, and I just wanted to see what people thought.

Many thanks in advance,

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg unkown rifles 3.jpg (36.9 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg Rifles busby.jpg (26.2 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg Rifles NCO cross belt.jpg (35.8 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg Rifles ST.jpg (37.4 KB, 66 views)

Last edited by Drew; 12-09-17 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Problems with attachments
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  #2  
Old 18-09-17, 01:05 PM
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Attached is my illustration of a photograph I have saved on my computer. Apologies, but since I do not remember where I got it and cannot add my source, I thought this was more appropriate in making my point.

I believe it is a St. George’s Rifles cross belt badge and I thought it looked very similar to that which the Sergeant is wearing in the ‘Rifles’ photograph I posted above. I wonder if this is evidence that what we might have here are the Queen Victoria’s Rifles?

I don’t think the photo looks pre-1908 and I think perhaps they are wearing ‘T/9/County of London’ metal shoulder titles. Therefore the St. George’s Rifles no longer exist. However, I would speculate that the NCO is nonetheless still wearing his old cross belt. What do people think?

One reason for my wondering about this is because I have been reading quite a few of the London Regiment histories recently, and one thing that has struck me is how many times they state that a certain battalion would continue wearing an older style of uniform or accoutrement until stocks ran out and how sometimes this was because of cost. In addition, even if this was not always the case with more ‘well heeled’ Battalions, I would add that perhaps it was tolerated, and even allowed, in deference to battalion loyalties of a pre-1908 date ; it might even have been a way of demarcating companies. Perhaps this would be unthinkable for the Regulars, but I have my suspicions about the Territorials in this regard.

In the past I have always tended to look at photos and date them according to the chronology we have. For example, and in this case, ‘If it is post-1908 it cannot possibly be the St. George’s Rifles!’, but recently I have started to wonder if in reality it wasn’t so clear as that.

More than happy to be proved wrong, but thought I would post anyway.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg St. George's Rifles 1.jpg (47.9 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Cross belt 1.jpg (50.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg cross belt 2.jpg (19.0 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Drew; 18-09-17 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Tautology ;)
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  #3  
Old 18-09-17, 06:38 PM
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Chris,

I'd say that shoulder title is post-1908. The 'T', whilst not crystal clear, is definitely there.

For what it's worth: the Sgt. has what I think are at least three efficiency stars on his right cuff (indicating 15 years returned annually as efficient) so he's been in for a while and so may well be wearing an 'accoutrement' from the pre-TF days on the pouch belt.

Copyright Drew.jpg

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 18-09-17 at 10:59 PM.
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  #4  
Old 18-09-17, 08:54 PM
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Thanks, JT. Very good to have another little bit of evidence.
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  #5  
Old 18-09-17, 10:32 PM
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Chris, after a bit of careful study I think you're right, QVR and an obsolete cross-belt badge.
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  #6  
Old 18-09-17, 10:56 PM
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Many thanks, Hoot. It is very nice to have a second opinion on that.
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  #7  
Old 19-09-17, 05:08 AM
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I have never heard of the St Georges Rifles before and would be interested to know when it started and finished. Also its pre-1900 insignia.
Thanks
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  #8  
Old 19-09-17, 11:20 AM
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I hope this diagram helps explain the antecedent battalions of the QVR. Personally I find it hard trying to hold all the different permutations in mind.

I think the 11th (later 6th) Middlesex, St. George's Rifles are represented by the badge I drew. Also see the following site for a helmet plate and collar badge Here (There also seems to be a somehow related, Australian 7th NSW Voluntary Infantry Regiment (St. George's Rifles) with similar choice of badge). The St George's element was, of course, retained in the centre of the QVR cap badge post-1908.

There was a great post by Sonofaqms here a few weeks ago where he kindly posted pictures of his Bloomsbury Rifles acquisitions.

I hope my summary attached is accurate as I am not an expert. Corrections very welcome.

Cheers,

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg QVR Lineage.jpg (27.9 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Drew; 19-09-17 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #9  
Old 19-09-17, 11:50 AM
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Some further information summarised from The History & Records of the Queen Victoria's Rifles 1792-1922, Compiled by Major C. A. Cuthbert Keeson:

"The St. George's Hanover Square Volunteers, The Old St. George's, were first formed in 1794. The uniform consisted of blue, long-tailed coats... the St. George and Dragon was the principal ornament on the pouches."

Disbanded in 1801 though reformed in 1803 and continued in some form until 1892.
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  #10  
Old 20-09-17, 01:39 PM
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By way of narrowing down the possibilities, here are some badges of the other antecedent battalions of the QVR:

1st Middlesex (Victoria) Rifles

"Mr Pixley of the Victoria Rifles", antique sketch showing cross-belt.

19th Middlesex Volunteer Rifles

19th Middlesex Volunteer Rifles

Most of them are taken from images of officers' pouch badges so I can't say for sure if the are the same as a NCO's cross-belt badge, but it is a start.

There is a possibility that the NCO in the main photograph is wearing a Victoria Rifles cross-belt badge. However, I think the silver coloured central motif of the badge he is wearing looks to be thicker than the initialed letters in the Victoria Rifles example.

Edit: Badge examples taken from The Saleroom.com
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8044.jpg (67.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Pixley Vic Rifles.jpg (107.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8042.jpg (92.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8043.jpg (72.0 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by Drew; 21-09-17 at 06:32 AM. Reason: To add source
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  #11  
Old 21-09-17, 07:15 AM
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Looking at the Maltese cross on the rifle busby in the main picture, it seems to me that the only possibilities for the post-1908 battalion pictured are:
6th Bn. London Rgt.
9th Bn. (See previous posts)
11th Bn.
12th Bn.*

This of course presumes that the photograph is of the London Regiment. Here are the relevant badges for the antecedents of the above units (see attached):

6th Bn. LR
2nd City of London Regiment (Volunteers)
'Officers pouch belt plate'

11th Bn.
39th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers
'White metal Officers badge'
(Need to see the 29 Middlesex Rifles.)

12th Bn.
22nd Middlesex Rifle Vol,
'Officers pouch belt'

*I think this last one is unlikely, but duly listed anyway.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8040.jpg (96.0 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8061.jpg (124.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8041.jpg (101.2 KB, 7 views)
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  #12  
Old 26-10-17, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Some further information summarised from The History & Records of the Queen Victoria's Rifles 1792-1922, Compiled by Major C. A. Cuthbert Keeson:

"The St. George's Hanover Square Volunteers, The Old St. George's, were first formed in 1794. The uniform consisted of blue, long-tailed coats... the St. George and Dragon was the principal ornament on the pouches."

Disbanded in 1801 though reformed in 1803 and continued in some form until 1892.
Out of interest, in 1892 the 6th Middlesex (St. George's) Volunteer Rifle Corps, amalgamated with the 1st Middlesex (Victoria) Volunteer Rifle Corps, to form the 1st Middlesex (Victoria & St. George's) Volunteer Rifle Corps [as per lineage diagram Chris included in post #8].

JT 1 MX RVC.jpg

The Victoria Rifles were formed almost forty years prior to this in 1853, sanctioned by Queen Victoria, at the recommendation of the Marquess of Salisbury. This Volunteer Rifle Corps was to consist of three-hundred men, formed into four companies of seventy-five men each, and with the following establishment of officers:

Lieutenant Colonel = 1
Major = 1
Captains = 4
First Lieutenants = 4
Second Lieutenants = 4
Adjutant = 1
Surgeon = 1

Regards,

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 26-10-17 at 12:55 AM.
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  #13  
Old 26-10-17, 12:20 PM
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Great detail, JT. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

Many thanks for posting,

Chris
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  #14  
Old 26-10-17, 01:20 PM
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This from the Bloomsbury Rifles six years before the 1892 amalgamation.


(Incidentally, their numbers seem quite healthy to me).

Chris

Edit: I am, of course, talking nonsense here. Apologies. The Bloomsburys were not amalgamated until 1908, therefore this information is not relevant to JTs points above. Scan left in thread anyway in case it is of general interest.
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File Type: jpg IMG_8463.JPG (71.7 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by Drew; 26-10-17 at 01:43 PM.
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