Arc titles: 1st Punjab and Royal Sikh Rgt

[loupie1961]

Two embroidered cloth arc titles, one to the 1st Punjab Regiment, the second one to the Royal Sikh Regiment. It looks like in WWII Indian regiments would rather wear slip on epaulettes titles, usually woven, so I must infer these are post war pre partition titles, or is there any evidence of such titles being worn on BD blouses, for example? Thank you so much in advance!

[Wmr-RHB]

I will put it carefully: I never heard about a Royal Sikh Regiment in the British Indian Army.

[GriffMJ]

2nd Btn Royal Sikh Regiment postcards are available at the National Army Museum

Iraq 1941: The Battles for Basra, Habbaniya, Fallujah and Baghdad. <------- sound familiar! ;o)
This comprised: 3 Jat Regiment 2 Royal Sikh Regiment 1 Mahratta Light Infantry Dispositions of Iraq Force as at 20 June 1941 Northern Iraq (HQ 20 Indian)....
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3...ent%22&f=false

[Wmr-RHB]

I am baffled

Those list in the upper part of the page is very strange. Below it we see references to battalions of the numbered regiment of the Indian Army, like 4/13 Frontier Force Rifles, which is of course short for 4th (Wilde's) Bn, 13th Frontier Force Rifles.. Same for 3/11 Sikhs,, which is short for 3rd Bn (Rattray's Sikhs), 11th Sikh Regiment.

But the list at the top, which you cite has 3 Jat Regiment, which should have been 3/9 Jat Regiment and 1 Mahratta Light Infantry should have been 1/5 Mahratta Light Infantry when the same notation as lower on that page would have been used. Why so inconsistent?

And I am very much interested in that 2 Royal Sikh Regiment. As said, I personaly never have seen it mentioned. But Google gives entries about: 2nd Royal Battalion (Ludhiana Sikhs), 11th Sikh Regiment!

That would mean that the "Royal" belongs to the Battalion, not to the Regiment (11th Sikh Regiment) A case of sloppy use of the titles, as well as in the book as on the shoulder title.

BTW, the 2nd (Ludhiana Sikhs) Bn, 11th Sikh Regiment originated from the 15th Ludhiana Sikhs. I am not aware of any date when this Battalion was made Royal. Anybody that can help me here?

[pinfrin]

'I will put it carefully: I never heard about a Royal Sikh Regiment in the British Indian Army.'

1. lesser royal sikhs with the (P)FF and the Pioneers
2. lt gen francis tuker's book (cassell, 1950, pg 481 etc)
'while memory serves' has pointed comments.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by pinfrin

1. lesser royal sikhs with the (P)FF and the Pioneers

They have the words "Royal" and "Sikh" in some combination in their titles, but they are not The Royal Sikh Regiment.

Using the correct titles is always important, but the more so in the Indian Army and it's predecessors. It is very easy to create confusion.

[peter monahan]

Pinfrin

Could you share or paraphrase General Tuker's comments on the 'Royal Sikhs', please. Your reference is not terribly clear.

The 2nd Battalion, 11th Sikh Regiment was awarded the subsidiary title in 1935, to become the "2nd (Royal) Battalion". This title would have been discontinued at Partition.

I too am being careful in my wording here: I have never seen an embroidered Indian Army shoulder title with a crown on it before. Very interesting and unusual. I would be extremely interested in any documentation members can provide.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

Pinfrin

Could you share or paraphrase General Tuker's comments on the 'Royal Sikhs', please. Your reference is not terribly clear.

I agree. I do not think that being member of these forums requires one having those at hand.

Originally Posted by peter monahan

The 2nd Battalion, 11th Sikh Regiment was awarded the subsidiary title in 1935, to become the "2nd (Royal) Battalion". This title would have been discontinued at Partition.

Thanks for that. But is the discontinuing connected to partition in 1947 or to on India becoming a republic in 1950?

[pinfrin]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

I agree. I do not think that being member of these forums requires one having those at hand.

Thanks for that. But is the discontinuing connected to partition in 1947 or to on India becoming a republic in 1950?

Looked at the grammar (?) The 'Royal Sikh Regiment' could be
(a) a locally designed short form for one of three Regts below
(even as Dress Regs Army say at line 1 page 1 that ' CO's are
forbidden to introduce or sanction any deviation from sealed patterns..)
eg the 'Beja WW2 battle badge' sale at Buywyze OR
(b) as suggested sloppy OR
(c) as an irritated general generally notes- sikh 'swank' eg he writes
'Probably one of the examples of our failure to deal with primitive
and dangerous religious custom..is that of the sikh kirpan.... (more
good humored comment available - can scan the pages some day )

3rd Regiment Sikh Infantry {1901} ->
53rd Sikh Regiment (Frontier Force) {1903} ->
3rd Battalion 12th Frontier Force Regiment {1922} ->
3rd Royal Battalion 12th Frontier Force Regiment {1935} Silver Jubilee Honors

34th (Punjab) Regiment Bengal Infantry (Pioneers) {1887} ->
34th Punjab Pioneers Regiment {1901} ->
34th Sikh Pioneers Regiment {1903} (one of 12 single Bn Regiments of Pioneers prewar)->
34th Royal Sikh Pioneers Regiment {1922} ->
3rd Royal Battalion 3rd Sikh Pioneer Regiment {1923)

15th Ludhiana Sikh Regiment {1903} ->
2nd Battalion 11 Sikh Regiment {1922} ->
2nd Royal Battalion 11 Sikh Regiment {1935}

[Wmr-RHB]

Thank you so much.

That is information people can use when they want to shed light on that shoulder title.

[loupie1961]

The title is attested in Rosignoli's the Allied Forces in Italy. 1953-1945, but is not easy to tell wether the title is a drawing or a pic. Is nevertheless described as "cloth shoulder title of the 2nd (Royal) Bn, 11th Sikh Regt.

[peter monahan]

Interesting, Loupie! That might be an important clue too: made locally and 'be d***ed to' the regulations put out by the box-wallahs in Delhi.

[Postwarden]

With regard to the question of cloth titles such as those shown.

There is some evidence that Indian regiments did wear such titles on battle dress mainly in the postwar period but whilst still the British Indian Army - three examples attached, two from the British Commonwealth Occupation Force in Japan.

At various times during and immediately after the war contingents of Indian troops visited Britain wearing BD and the titles shown may have been made for them.

Jon

[peter monahan]

Also a possibility, as would locally made for occupation duty, which one could check [ie were they in Japan/Asia post '45]

[loupie1961]

One need to be patient: finally found evidence of the Royal Sikh Regiment arc title having existed AND been worn during WWII: officers the Royal Sikh Regiment paying their respects to the monks of Mount Athos, February-March (?) 1945.