Button Dates - couple of questions?

[Roy]

Hi Gents,

So one general question for members to ponder and one more specific.

The specific one first - see photograph attached of a Bedford Militia button (Ripley No3). The lack of rim suggests to me it is pre 1855 but is it possible to narrow this down a little further? Backmark is just 'Jennens & Co London'.

A more general question and one I may have posed before, so if so, forgive my repetition. I would like to hear members thoughts on around what time the open backed buttons started to get replaced by the closed backed types?

I suspect it was around the 1830's. Of course I'm sure there is no definitive answer to this question but would still like to hear any thoughts members may have.

Cheerio,

Roy

[Cribyn]

Hello Roy

I would agree that your Bedford Militia button is for the coatee and thus pre-1855. The Victoria cypher will date it to after 1837 and I think that is about as close a date as you will get - 1837-1855.

The 'Jennens & Co London' backmark replaced the previous 'Charles Jennens ...' mark in about 1832 so in this instance that doesn't help to narrow the dates down at all I'm afraid.

I don't think there is any specific date for the change from open back to closed back buttons so far as regimental buttons are concerned. Parkyn states "The flat single-piece officers' buttons were gradually replaced by a convex open-backed button ......but later this gave way to a convex one with a closed back". In his earlier book on British Army buttons Howard Ripley gives a date of "about 1820-1830" for the change to closed back buttons.

I think the change would probably have been a very gradual one with, no doubt, some closed back buttons being made before 1820 and some open backed ones made long after 1830. Of course, some military buttons, mess waiter's buttons for example, were made in the open back style well into the 20th century and beyond, so the open back issue has to be approached with some caution when dating some military buttons.

Just to add the obvious point that many 'foreign' military buttons were made open backed long after the turn of the 20th century.

Roger

[Roy]

Hi Roger,

Thank you for your scholarly reply, some very sensible comments there. I should have caught the cypher but for some reason it completely escaped me - first day off in weeks - well that's my excuse..

Cheers,

Roy