Archer Restoration Project - 20th Anti Tank Regt Formation Sign??

[Ironside410]

Hello

I am currently involved in the restoration of an Archer. We have tracked the vehicle down to being used by the RA 20th Anti Tank Regiment in 1945 and would like to have it marked up to represent the regiment but we are having difficulty identifying the correct formation signs.

Can anybody help with a picture or point me in the right direct as to where this information could be obtained.

Regards

Dennis

[fairlie63]

Hi Dennis,

20 A Tk Regt was a component of 3 Div, the formation sign for which was a black equilateral triangle on its base, with an inverted red equilateral triangle centred inside the black, with the lower point touching the centre of the base of the larger triangle, and the other points touching the centre of each side.

Its Vehicle Unit Serial should have been the number 46 in white superimposed on a 9 and 1/2 inch high by 8 and 1/2 inch wide plate, horizontally divided red over blue. There should also be a tactical marking of a blue square with a smaller red square in one of the corners denoting the particular battery, and an alpha-numeric symbol in white denoting the troop and sub-section. As however these things were subject to regimental idiosyncracies you would have to seek a more expert opinion.

Best reference at this time would be British Military Markings 1939-1945, by Peter Hodges and Michael D Taylor, Cannon Publications 1994. It even has a picture of the divisional sign on the cover.

Which reminds me, do you have provenance for the Vehicle Unit Serial 22 you guys have on your Yeramba? My understanding is that it should be a vulgar fraction, 22 over 74 up until the end of 1952, and thence 74 from that time onwards. The unit ceased to be under comd of 2 Armd Bde in 1953 I think, and came under comd 2 AGRA(Fd) until disbandment. Whether it changed from the armoured gauntlet and axe on yellow to the field gun and number of 2 AGRA on blue I don't know. Happy (in fact crave the knowledge) if you have photos showing 22 in use.

Cheers, Keith

[Mike Jackson]

This image - mid 1944 - shows a 3 Inf Div Priest SP Gun - note that the 3 Inf Div sign is, unlike the version worn on BD, superimposed on a red disc. I can't prove it, but it's likely that this practice was universal throughout 3 Div RA . Mike

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

[Postwarden]

The official vehicle sign for 3rd Division as first announced in May 1939 was described as "three adjacent triangles in a red circular disc".

Jon

[Ironside410]

Thanks to Keith and Mike for your guidance in regards to the formation markings for the Archer.

Keith, in regards to the markings on the Yeramba they are the ones that were on it when we purchased it. I recently purchased an original beret from one of the Sgts who manned a Yeramba when they were in Brighton. I will see if he can shed any light on the markings and hopefully some pictures to corroborate them.

Regards

Dennis

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Postwarden

The official vehicle sign for 3rd Division as first announced in May 1939 was described as "three adjacent triangles in a red circular disc".

Jon

By Jan 41 the WO had added the word "black" between "adjacent" and "triangles".
Before they met 3 Inf Div again in Normandy, German Intelligence had the following take on the Division:
3 Inf Div_DBK OOB _Feb 44.jpg

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Ironside410

Thanks to Keith and Mike for your guidance in regards to the formation markings for the Archer.

Keith, in regards to the markings on the Yeramba they are the ones that were on it when we purchased it. I recently purchased an original beret from one of the Sgts who manned a Yeramba when they were in Brighton. I will see if he can shed any light on the markings and hopefully some pictures to corroborate them.

Regards

Dennis

Any chance of pics of the Yeramba markings? I ask because I have a battledress jacket which I think may be 22 Field Regt, and I'd like to find out more about the unit and its vehicles.
Thanks and well done with your work.

[Ironside410]

Hello Lettman

Attached is a picture of the formation signs on the Yeramba. The issue raised by Keith has me investigating as to whether or not they are the correct markings.

Regards

Dennis

[lettman]

Many thanks, Dennis. Do I assume that the 22 indicates the 22 Fd Regt?

[Staffsyeoman]

A minor footnote to this - I was at the Memorial Pegasus on Monday; unfortunately I was unable to get pictures for complicated reasons, but the representative towed 17pdr they have there bears a 3 Div sign on a red circle. As much as this is a restoration job that struck me, if accurate for a later-war item.

[fairlie63]

Dennis,

Managed to get some photos of the Yerambas via a former officer of 22 Fd Regt (SP). Most show no markings being displayed at all except for the vehicle callsign.

However photo attached shows that 22/74 was used at one stage, in accordance with VUS listed in AMF Orbat 1949, and it shows the position of the formation and unit signs on these vehicles (note that photo negative has been reversed).

Note no design has been applied to the yellow square for the formation sign. This might date the photo to a period after early 1953 when 22 Fd Regt (SP) was transferred to 2 AGRA(Fd) but before a formation sign was approved for the latter formation (1954 if I recall).

In late 1952 the British system of vehicle markings was introduced, the VUS for a fd regt allotted to an armd bde was 74 by itself but all non-divisional artillery units allotted to an AGRA continued to use the vulgar fraction type of VUS and 22 Fd Regt might have followed suit by retaining its former sign.

Design of VUS is as per attached document.

Keith