1st (Royal) Dragoons - 1914

[Bill]

Attached is a photograph of 2nd Lieutenant Arthur Herbert Posden Burn of the 1st Royal Dragoons that appeared in the Roll of Honour in The Sphere on 28th November 1914; he was killed in action during the brutal Battle of Gheluvelt, 28th to 31st October 1914, (where the 7th Division arguably saved the BEF).

To quote from General Sir John French’s Despatch [On the Ypres-Armentieres Battle II] in the The Sphere (19th December 1914): “Shortly after daylight on the 30th another attack began to develop in the direction of Zandvoorde, supported by the heavy artillery fire. In the face of this attack the 3rd Cavalry Division had to withdraw to the Klien-Zillebeke Ridge. This withdrawal involved the right of the 7th Division”. The 1RD, 10H and C Battery, RHA made up the 6th Cav. Brig, 3rd Cav. Div.

His photograph shows the cap badge with the eagle facing right, a badge not described in Dress Regs 1904 or 1911, and is similar to that shown below (25 x 33.3 mm, 6.35 mm or ¼” shank). The badge was omitted from KK and pre-dates John Gaylor’s entry of 1915.

The two left facing eagles are officers’ badges of a different pattern to the brass one. The fine gilt badge (22.5 x 32.5mm, 13 mm loops) is by Jennens & Co., so issued before 1924 and possibly before 1919 (see note below). The OSD version is 23 x 33 mm with 20 mm long blades.

Does anyone have photographs of this pattern being worn during the Great War and was the Royal Crest worn concurrently by both officers and men?

And some further information, first from http://www.uniformology.com/UIDSPEC-05.html
“The Royal Dragoons were given permission by Queen Victoria in 1880 to wear a silver eagle with gilt wreath over a gilt plinth bearing the number “105” on their side caps. (used 1881-1895).....With the new design side cap came the Royal Crest badge (1895-onwards)” .......Onwards to when, 1911?

Second from http://householdcavalry.info/rd1661.html
“The Eagle cap badge pictured above (known as "unofficial" 105th Other Ranks Eagle cap badge) was worn from 1911-1919. The Royals were in South Africa with the 10th Royal Hussars from 1911-1914. Both Regiments returned home in August 1914, and spent the next six months on Salisbury Plain together before joining the 3rd Cavalry Division in France. At the end of the war the Royals were "ordered" to wear the Royal Crown badge once more - ending the eight years' use of the ORs 105 Eagle cap badge. Incidentally, the badge was made by a company in Hythe.”

It seems that:-
- officers, not just OR, also wore the badge in the same and, possibly, other forms
- the statement highlighted in red is incorrect, 1RD were in Muttra in 1909 moving to S. Africa in 1911 (joined by 10H from India in 1913 who landed in S. Africa in Nov. 1912)
- both regiments disembarked in Ostend on 8th Oct 1914.
- So is the assertion that the badge was worn from 1911 to 1919 correct?
- and is there any evidence at all that a company in Hythe made these badges in 1911?

Bill
PS: For Hoot - the feathers on these badges are not ostrich feathers!

[Jimbo66]

Bill, As an ex Royal Dragoon and a collector of everything regimental for many years I am still trying to fathom out the badges worn by officers and other ranks before WW1 and during. I have many photos including this one taken at Bulford Camp in 1903 just before the regiment left for India in 1904. There is a mixture of Royal Crest & Eagle cap badges being worn with Royal Crest and eagle collar badges. Jim

[GriffMJ]

Coloured up pic of him...



The ORs small eagle was worn in SA prior to WW1 and on their return to Blighty was seen worn in pics in Ludgershall...... but I have yet to see it being worn in WW1 by the ORs? All the WW1 images I have show them wearing the Royal crest.

[Hoot]

Bill, of course there are no ostrich feathers, the birds are obviously pigeons!!. I don't hallucinate all the time you know!!. Nice badges by the way.

[Jimbo66]

Photo of the Sergeant's Royal Dragoons taken in 1914 clearly shows most of them wearing the Royal Crest cap badge, although all of the photos I have of individuals show them wearing the small eagle. There is also a photo of a private wearing the Royal Crest cap badge. I have several others taken during the war. Jim

[Jimbo66]

As you were! I meant to say that many of the photos from my collection taken of individuals during WW1 certainly are shown wearing the small eagle but I also have several photos of individuals wearing the Royal Crest. It seems likely that a wartime recruit would have been issued with the 'official' cap badge but adopted the eagle on joining the Regiment in France.

Over the years I have never seen a polished or worn example of the gm eagle cap badge with slider mentioned in John Gaylor's book? I believe it was never issued during the war. Jim

[Jimbo66]

A couple of photos showing the small eagle worn as a cap badge. Jim

[Bill]

Jim and Griff (and Hoot)
Many thanks for the photographs and information - very useful.
Jim, I think that the gm eagle that I showed at the start is Great War, with a 1/4" slider.

What do you make of the gilt Jennens badge?

And Hoot, do you race those pigeons?

Bill

[GriffMJ]

Jim

This image is most likey post war..... late 1919 or early 1920.


Bill

Those small brass eagles are a bit of a question mark (with slider).


Here is the normal small eagle.... as seen in WW2 also. See my album pic... http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=111998

[Jimbo66]

Bill,

The style of eagle changed, first with lined wings & then post 1949 with feathered wings. Your all gilt Jennens badge appears to be the latter period. Also the eagle should be facing to your right to be a correct cap badge, therefore it must be a collar badge as they had facing pairs, although it does appear to have long loops.

Are you sure it is all gilt as it should be gilt with a silver wreath & the eagle on a silver tablet bearing 105? Walter Lambert described an all gilt badge but with the earlier style of wings e.g. pre-1949.

In the Royals the eagle was known as the s..te hawk. Jim

[GriffMJ]

This is an early glit/silver....


By Firmin... (Cap)

[Jimbo66]

Griff, You are right about the postcard of Farrier J. Christie, being post war the medal ribbon of the 1914 Star is a good clue.

Here are two more eagles. Not good scans - sorry. The one on the left is all gm and has two loops - east & west, whereas the badge on the right is facing the wrong way for a cap badge but has a slider fitted. Jim

[GriffMJ]

Jim

The left one looks cast? .... the right one is in the question mark category. I know that Walter Lambert had these in his collection..... but.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jimbo66

A couple of photos showing the small eagle worn as a cap badge. Jim

LH chap has a 1915 pattern tunic and a 'gor blimey' c.winter 1915 cap with ear flaps.

RH chap has 4 overseas chevrons and a 1915-15 star so is circa 1918/19. If it was 1920 then I would expect the other 2 ribbons.

[davidwyke]

[QUOTE=Jimbo66;349447]Griff, You are right about the postcard of Farrier J. Christie, being post war the medal ribbon of the 1914 Star is a good clue.


If it's the 1914 Star ribbon, they were first authorised for wear in 1917. If it has the rosette then it would be from 1919 onwards. 1914-15 Star from 1918 onwards. Chances are he would also be wearing the rest of his entitlement (BWM & VM) from (late) 1919 onwards.

David