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  #1  
Old 28-10-13, 11:59 AM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Question Dies, life expectancy?

Recently there have been lots of theories as to the fonts used on badges and the different letter sizes, spacings and widths of scroll etc.

As a former letterpress compositor (someone who worked in the printing industry using metal type) and on occasions had to cut lead type out by hand, I can appreciate the difficulties of anyone cutting dies out of steel for the production of badges.

My questions are:
How many pressings would be produced from a die before the quality was deemed beyond acceptable?

Would more than one die be produced by the same person at the same time or would they be produced by different employees?

Badges made by different contractors would obviously vary, hence differences in all aspects.

If anyone has any idea of the answers to the above questions it may help to give a reason as to why there are so many variations in badges. In a previous post I mentioned that during the Great War over a million men passed through the ranks of the ASC, not quite so many, but certainly with lots of the Infantry Regiments during that period having many Btns there must have been a great many badges required resulting in lots of variations of die struck badges.

I welcome your thoughts.

Rob
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Old 28-10-13, 12:13 PM
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Rob

Excellent question..... and one I am looking into at the moment. Unless you have first hand knowledge of the "method" from the factory then you can only speculate from the evidence in front of you..... i.e. a sequence of the same badge that you know are from one particular maker and you know cover a specific time span.
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Old 28-10-13, 12:22 PM
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Indeed a very good question.

Metals can be annealed to make them softer, is this process used on the sheet prior to stamping? it could increase the life of a steel die.

And is white metal a little harder than gilding metal? and would it wear the dies faster?

Rob
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Old 28-10-13, 12:25 PM
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And being in the Life Insurance industry I thought here's a question I might be able to answer....
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Old 28-10-13, 12:30 PM
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Rob

A relevant added question would be:-

How did the factory "recover" a damaged die?

The die is in two parts ... a male (back image) and female (front image). The male can be changed..... but the female is the "image" of the badge. How would you "recover" a damaged female die of a popular (for want of a better word) badge..... without going to the expense of making a new one?

Another question:-

How many units could a die make before failure on average? (Understanding that die manufacturing technology would change over time)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 28-10-13 at 12:49 PM.
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  #6  
Old 28-10-13, 01:23 PM
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For a hardened steel die , life expenctancy could be anywhere from a few thousand to 20,000 strikes, but even one mistrike could ruin it completely.

A work hardened early tool steel in a drop hammer would should manage about 5,000 strikes before showing wear, but cracking is a hard factor to predict until the late victorian period when tool steel becomes far more quality controled.

Quite often the die (female) is hardened and the male (punch) is iron or case hardened steel rather than a tool steel, so it will slowly adapt to the changes in the actual die with wear and resist shock impact better.

Lettering in dies and buttons was not always cut by hand but punched (hobbed) into the die while shoft and finished afterwards. Worn dies could be annealed (softened), recut or re-hobbed) and rehardened to increase life.

Large production runs would probably be made using hobbed dies (you make a master set and use them to create working dies) so they become disposable tools rather than assets. (minting is done this way). Often elements in several different dies would have the same hobs employed for similar elements too.

Firmins still have a 1840's drop hammer used for some badges as it actually produces a better strike than a modern hydraulic press, but because it's an impact rather than a squeeze it's more demanding on the dies.

It's interesting that until the 1830's French badges and shako plates are generally made out of a thinner guage metal than british as we had better development of tool steel.


All stamping metal is annealed and pickled (cleaned) before use (often in vacume kilns or under controled atmoshphere). Sometimes it will be struck twice or more with annealing in between especially on deep or complex shapes to prevent splitting and cracking of the stamping.

There's a lot of metalurgy involved in the process as brasses have very different properties even with a very small change in their component metals and often require different ways of working entirely.
Apart from the colour, gilding metal is almost mostly copper (90-95%), whereas a cartridge brass in about 80% and yellow brass 60% and some brasses are actually bronzes in reality.


A good example of die progression is some of the lancer cap plates. There are a few where they rehob an earlier die and then cut extra battle honours into the dies in spaces on top of the old pattern if there is room. The next pattern plate will be done more from scratch because too many elements need to be moved.

It's not uncommon in the jewellery industry for dies to be still in used over 70-100 years later and to only be made from wrought iron.
If you ever get a chance, there's a sliversmith/ die stampers workshop preserved in the birmingham jewellery district dating back from 1880, with a lot of badge dies subcontracted out to them and still useable.
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/d...ilver-factory/
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Old 28-10-13, 01:32 PM
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Great reply and read with real interest

Do you have any knowledge on the repairs of dies? For example.... if the female die was cracked..... could it be temporarily fixed to give it a bit more longevity?
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Old 28-10-13, 02:29 PM
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Repairing them is very tricky as, while you could solder or weld the crack you've lost the hardness and introduced some very localised heat stress too as well as altering the properties of the steel crystaline structure.

Then you have to reheat to harden the dies, which often involves long heat periods and very controled temperature, as well as cooling by quenching which is extremely stressfull and the repair will react differently to the actual steel too.
Finally you have to temper the steel to soften it and relieve stresses from the hardening as it's usually too hard and brittle to survive long.

The modern approach can use laser welding or the use of specialised resins or even electroplating to repair.
With the advent of cnc and spark erosion it often quicker, cheaper or less hassle to make a new die than repair them .

I think the usual pattern was a reinforced frame around the die and use untill it broke entirely or the production run was finished, then make a new die. The period literature doesn't have much info about repairs and mostly warns of the dangers involved (shattering at 30 tons of pressure is interesting to say the least- think hand-grenade).
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Old 28-10-13, 02:38 PM
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Its all good sense..... and yes I can imagine the kind of reaction metal will have under real stress (I have thrown one or two 'nades )

Another question..... how easy would it be to replicate a die, going back in time now to the 1920s lets say? Would it have been possible to copy another .... lets say losing a little detail in the process?

Another :-

If the male die chipped in an area of detail...... then I suppose a new female would have to be made to make to accommodate this? The new female being made by an impression of the chipped male die - and again.... losing a bit of detail by this process?
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 28-10-13 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 28-10-13, 03:59 PM
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If you have one hardened die you can hob a corresponding counterpart die off it without too much trouble if you have the presses with enough pressure.

A male punch hob would be exactly the design shape required for a female die, but the male die for the female has to have an allowance for the actual metal your embossing.

The usual process was to remove by grinding, cutting or chisel out, most of the metal required in the die and use the hob to press into the soft steel the final shape. You might hob 2 or three times with annealing in between as part of the process. The hob itself may not have lettering on as they could be be hand cut afterwards or seperately punched or hobbed in a similar way. Design elements, like crowns, garters, lions, leaves, seeds and surface matting may or may not be seperate punches too. Certainly in the button industry this was extremely common, but they were smaller scale.

Once hardened, tempered and polished you can make the male counterpart the same way, in soft steel or iron, with most of the shape proud and then forced into the female. You can then cut back the male to give the required clearence and test strike with lead or copper sheet.
Quite often the male is left softened or just case hardened or even made from plain steel or iron for clearance, as it will adjust with use more than the hardened female and might need relieving over time.

You can also make a complete male hob off the female by the same process if you need extra dies made, and you use these to make copy dies rather than risking the origininal male hob. You can do the reverse and cut a female directly and make the male from this, but it's harder work cutting a relief design than a proud design.

Working from a surviving male die is harder as you've got clearence to put back in, but does save a lot of effort and keeps the shape very close, but often depends on how hard the male can be made to be afterwards. Iron isn't much good.

The big difference from today is that the pool of people used to working this way was much larger and engraving was an everyday process rather than a specialised skill.

Chipping isn't so much a problem in the male hob as you can cut it back into the female, but chips in the female ruin the die, though you can cut back a male hobbed of the female.

The important thing to remember is that labour was the cheap part and hand working something would often be less expensive than the value of the materials used.

There's a study of how much work you had to do to earn a nights lighting (candle or electricity) and it's not till the 1950's that it makes a really significant jump
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Old 28-10-13, 04:12 PM
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Thats all exactly what I was hoping for .... and more

With regard to officers badges:-

To get some good weight in the silver badges you will see a different male die being used and I perceive the male die to be interchangeable with the male that would make the Other Ranks badge.

For example I can demonstrate a badge that is hall marked in 1918 and then again in 1932..... the same face.... but different back images. The white metal die stamped has the same face...... but the male die is made in the females image.

Neibelungen, I wish you were sat here with me and I could show you exactly what I am talking about..... it will take a huge thread to try to explain it.

* Trace ability of a die flaw is also very useful.
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 28-10-13 at 04:31 PM.
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  #12  
Old 28-10-13, 04:24 PM
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Default Male dies

As a matter of interest, here are two male die's I have to the Cheshire Regiment.
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File Type: jpg DSC04217.jpg (48.2 KB, 59 views)
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Old 28-10-13, 04:32 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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Nice examples of dies.

I think they might be the actual hobbing dies made for the female as they tend to be kept more and remain unused.
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Old 28-10-13, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neibelungen View Post
Nice examples of dies.

I think they might be the actual hobbing dies made for the female as they tend to be kept more and remain unused.
Hobbing? Can you just explain the term please
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Old 28-10-13, 04:49 PM
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An important aspect of numismatics (part of my day job) is die linking and I am beginning to see patterns in KLR badges - as clearly is Griff for his badges.

Anyway, I was going to mention the range of production that the War Office ordered in April 1916. A cap badge tender went out - presumably to many different manufacturers - for varying amounts between 2,000 (1st Life Guards) to 200,000 (Royal Artillery - ASC were only 100,000 !). Presumably manufacturers - if they didn't join forces - had to be able to cater for such diverse figures ?


PS, here are three female dies from my KLR collection (I've yet to find any male ones)
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Last edited by KLR; 28-10-13 at 05:00 PM. Reason: adding dies
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