23rd Battalion The London Regiment

[dak580]

Looking through the threads but can't find an answer.

I have a bronze 23rd with a 'slider'. It is defiantly not a dirty brass badge in need of a good clean. Have uploaded both front and back of this badge along with my brass version.

Also have a silver and gilt 23rd which again original had a slider now broached.

KK states bronze and silver and gilt are officer issue.

So does anyone know if these 'officer' badges were ever issued 'with a slider'?

[Hoot]

The "bronze" badge has braze holes on the reverse so it is a bi-metal badge that has been given a bronze-brown coating at some point.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

The "bronze" badge has braze holes on the reverse so it is a bi-metal badge that has been given a bronze-brown coating at some point.

Agreed... it's an O/Rs' badge. The slider seems to have been included in the 'bronzing' process too.

Your all-G/M example seems good.

Any chance of a view of the front of the badge in pic #4? As you say, it once had a slider.

Thanks for posting.

JT

[magpie]

I would say your badge has been in the ground at some point giving the bronze appearance.

[Alex Rice]

looking at your brooched silver/gilt badge, it appears cast so I would suggest a privately purchased one which used a broken O/Rs badge as the template. Either that or it is an old O/Rs badge which has been gilded and silver plated by a jeweler. I think they can use wax to shield areas which they don't want to be affected by the plating process.
Cheers,
Alex

[manchesters]

Definately BM and not bronze.

Just needs a deep clean.

regards

[MH331]

I agree

Originally Posted by magpie

I would say your badge has been in the ground at some point giving the bronze appearance.

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by MH331

I agree

Make me the third. Without doubt a corroded badge that just happened acquire an appearance similar to that on OSD badges. I have seen this before.

CB

[KLR]

Well there were officer's badges that had sliders - but that is another matter because neither of the badges you illustrate are officer's badges. (I'm puzzled by the reference of 'S&G' in this thread !)


The first badge is - as has been pointed out - a bi-metal badge that would date from 1908 to 1916. Yes, it's just dirty (no shame in that !)
The second badge is a 1916 'all GM' badge which the WO defined as Pattern 622/1915 - of which 5k were ordered in April 1916 (see Bull MHS Nov 2015). The reverse still retains the "gilding" that the jeweller responsible for transforming it into a brooch applied. It has worn off on the front.


Apropos "bronzing" - this was, in WO parlance, a GM badge that was either blackened (as for rifle regiments) or 'bronzed' - ie a brownish colour - commonly used for eg yeomanry badges and a few others such as the Lpl Pals. The WO documents (at TNA) specifically describe the 23rd London badge being just plain 'GM' !


You still have two nice examples - though the first could do with a clean. Enjoy !

[magpie]

There's 3 badges there, perhaps a picture of the front of the gilded brooch would be nice.

[dak580]

Gentlemen

Thank you all for your replies. I didn't think they were officer but couldn't work out why they are 'officer' style.

Yes the bronze badge is exactly the same construction as my bi-metal 23rd.

Have just cleaned the bronzed badge with my favorite cleaner 'toothpaste' and the bronze coating is still there now minus grim.

Obviously didn't want to destroy the coating to get back to the base metals. The bronze is all over back and front so I agree it was coated at sometime.

If it was bronze coated any ideas on who might have worn them and when?

With the silver/gilt badge yes the broach work looks professionally done so could very well have been made from a OR's badge for someone with a few bob to spare back in the day.

Once again many thanks for all your input, most helpful.

[KLR]

Dak, no sorry, I hadn't realised that there were three badges.
Firstly, although there were 'officially' bronzed badges it was not uncommon for soldiers to darken or blacken their badges - whilst they still wore caps before the advent of the helmet. Troops in Egypt actually used some form of creosote !
The construction of your "S&G" is die struck and not die cast as an officer's badge would be. Moreover the silver and gilt parts would have been separate metals whereas the 'gilding' on yours has been painted on - you can see that the brush has slipped here and there.
As a 'single unit' collector I like these examples showing a range of badges that have traces of being adapted.
J


PS officer's badges were not "issued" (by the WO) until 1949, hitherto they had to buy them. However they could actually ask the maker - or more likely their tailors - for specific fixtures (blades, loops or even sliders). S&G is what officer's wore on formal / home dress whereas bronze (introduced in 1902) was for Service Dress (usually known as O[fficer's]SD).


PPS - Castle Militaria has just listed a nice pair of 23rd London officer's collar badges

[dak580]

KLR Thank you for your detailed reply and I think you've hit nail on the head.

Yes these away from the standard out of the ordinary badges are a bonus to any collection only problem is their not in the main reference books.

[mojob123]

There was a thread here about standard East Surrey bimetal badges being 'bronzed'; http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...+surrey+bronze

It caught my eye as I have one exactly the same. I think on these the 'bronzing' has faded to slightly different colours on the brass and the white metal. I have to say, my assumption has always been that they were used as a stop gap by ORs or NCOs ennobled to officerhood where no OSD badges were immediately available. Mike

[magpie]

I must say that with the exception of griff's images all the badges in these 2 threads look like typical ground dug from good soil to me.