Royal Irish Fusiliers officer SD cap badge query

[cbuehler]

All,
I cant seem to determine what was the cap badge as worn on the officer's SD cap circa WW1....was it the Harp or the Eagle and I assume the smaller Coronet?
Thanks,
CB

[billy]

The Eagle for WW 1 they went with the Harp and Feathers later But! don't know when, could have been 1922 when we lost all our Southern Rgts to the formation of Eire, (stand to be corrected of course) but the Eagle was relegated to Collars - Very nice Gilt and Silver mind! I have an Officers Bronze (missing Coronet). Could be WW2 period I don't know?

Will look at those I have this afternoon and if you wish can send images onto you just send me your Email address if you wish, tryinv to work out if those I have had sliders? I know some I have are lugged with a fixed Coronet.

All the best billy

[irishhorse]

Billy could you post a picture of your bronze collar.
Danny

[cbuehler]

Thanks for that. I suspected it was likely the eagle for officers in ww1, but I wonder if the harp started to be worn around that time as well.
I must say that I find this regiment to be quite confusing with all the variants and changes to their badges for both officers and ORs.

CB

[John Mulcahy]

The 1906 and 1938 dated officers pattern cards show the grenade with Harp & POW feathers (without Coronet) in bronze metal. Forum Member "Cavarlyman" kindly shared with me his photos of these cards held by the regimental museum .

However what you will invariably see in Great War photographs is the silver and gilt two piece forage cap badge, Harp & Crown (with smaller coronet) in use. A search of the IWM photograph collection will quickly show this...

collar badge , almost always the silver & gilt eagle on grenade with coronet

as examples...

http://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/476/32...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/429/81...at=photographs



John

[John Mulcahy]

The first regimental pattern Field Service Cap badge was Princess Victoria's Coronet (silver) with a gilt flaming Grenade with the French Imperial Eagle, of the French 8th Infantry Regiment looking to its left, c. 1897.

This was quickly replaced by the 2nd Pattern by at least 1906 (and almost certainly earlier) for officers and 1903 for O/Rs: A separate Princess Victoria's Coronet in silver above a gilt flaming Grenade with the Prince of Wales's Plumes above a Harp.

John

[red rags]

The museum has 1 complete Bz example & a number of Bz grenades but the officers always wore silver & gilt, even in the trenches, but this was a Regt who declined to send any officers to the IG's on formation turning down the invitation from Buck House!

Although cap badges exist with an eagle they are error items by the manufacturer - the museum has NO eagle cap badges, only collars.

There are 100's of photos in the museum 1914 - all sil & gilt...

[billy]

Will post the Bronze badge Sunday this has been modified to sit on a picture frame photo will explain it better but am I correct in assuming this then did not! have a Coronet?

Will also locate all my Royal Irish Fusiliers badges to find those Eagles with or without sliders, all the best billy

[billy]

Hi here are the Royal Irish Fusiliers Officers badges with some collars these being about 1/3rd smaller than actual badge, so the badges are either correct for what they are - Badges, and not collars made into badges (unless of course there where collars of a larger size? If you see whst I mean?)

The first badge looks modern so please don't go by that! The (what I thought was a Bronze badge) is most likely a normal badge with Bronze wash and would need to attemt to clean it but by so doing destroy what it is, which is a desk ornament for want of a better description, could have made a nicer showing on the card! If it where glazed or somesuch! Still a bit of work gone into making the badge fit (possibly a gizzit! For someone?)

Different never seen one before so have given it a home hope the pictures help and I will come out knowing a bit more all the best billy

[ebro]

Billy,
the first badge is part of a collection made for the collector's market by Birmingham mint. I believe the next two are one piece collars and the next three are part of two part collars with their coronets missing.
Eddie

[orasot]

Thought these might be of interest chaps, silver & gilt set plus a bronze collar, I can do better pics if needed, all the best,
Wilf.

[John Mulcahy]

I also find that this regiment’s insignia can be confusing.

Here are some further details which I hope will help to clarify the use of the Eagle and the Harp and POW feathers (called Harp & Plume in the RACD records) on the regiment’s cap badge.

By cap badge I mean the badge used for FSC and then the Forage and Service Caps in turn. I am excluding Full Dress, Glengarry Forage Caps and the FSH.

When the FSC was first introduced for line infantry the regiment was ordered to wear the universal grenade. However, very soon thereafter, the regiment was allowed to use the coronet part of their collar badge pair in the FSC . This approval was given on 14 July 1893 as recorded in WO359 Vol 6 page 34 & 35. Colin Churchill's book is incorrect in stating this regiment was exempt for wearing a badge in the Field Cap. Along with the entry in the list of changes quoted above a photo in the Military Historical Society Bulletin Vol XXXX No 158 p78 corroborates this.

In common with the “movement” by the line Infantry regiments to replace the collar badges in the FSC with bespoke cap badges from 1896 onwards, the regiment designed a regimental pattern cap badge for the FSC to replace the collar badge worn previously.

This badge did have the Eagle on the grenade ball. It was approved as pattern 4475 and sealed on 12 Jan. 1897 [ recorded in both WO359/6 p363 and WO359/8 p184].

This was Princess Victoria's coronet in white metal worn above, and separately to, a flaming grenade in gilding metal with the Imperial Eagle of the French 8th line Infantry regiment in white metal upon the ball of the Grenade. The eagle faced to the viewers right. Fitment is loops. As is well known the 87th (Royal Irish Fusiliers) Regiment of Foot captured this Eagle at the Battle of Barossa in 1811.

This is the FSC badge for O/Rs as issued by the RACD. One assumes that the officer's badge was the same design but in silver and gilt but I have not seen any officers pattern cards pre-1902 and my records are currently in storage so I am unable to say with 100% certainty that officers used the same design as the OR's. However the reference in the following paragraph gives credence to officers also using the ”Eagle design”.

The use of the Eagle on the grenade for the FSC & Forage cap badge did not last long. 61002/Infy/763 dated 28/May /1902 and transcribed in WO359 vol 12 p 58 states the following….

“With reference to the adoption of the “Harp & Plume” as the mount for the badge of the new pattern forage cap for wear by officers of the Royal Irish Fusiliers and to inform you that steps are being taken in the matter, but it is feared that some little difficulty will be experienced in placing the mount on the present sized grenade of the pugaree badge which may result in a slight enlargement of the grenade. It is intended that the badge shall answer for both pugaree and forage cap. A further communication will be sent in due course.”

This reference is the first official one I have found documenting the replacement of the Eagle as the grenade device by the Harp and Plume for “cap badges” unusual in that it refers specifically to officer’s badges and is in the RACD list of changes. The RACD was authorized to control and supply other ranks materials issued at public expense but one does find officer related material from time to time such as this one.

This is the genesis of the so-called Brodrick cap badge. The larger sized grenade with Harp and Plume. I have not found any further communications on this matter in the list of changes or elsewhere.

Approved for other ranks as pattern 4475A sealed 02 March 1903 [WO359/11 p213 and WO359/12 p140].

Thus by c. 1903 the Eagle is replaced by Harp and Plume on the “cap badge” (In all of this of course the Eagle remained on the full dress cap badges/grenades and do also remember that the Eagle design was used on the (replaced by this time) glengarry forage cap, was intended for the short lived Terai service hat c. 1902 – c. 1904 and, after the great war, was used for the Pipers badge).

The larger sized “Brodrick Badge” was modified to the more usual size by the sealing of SPN 4475B for other ranks on 18 July 1906 [WO359/13 p186 and WO359/14 p103]. The 1906 officers pattern card that I referred to in earlier posts dated April 7th 1906 already shows a silver and gilt grenade with Harp and Plume, the resized version, as the approved officer's forage cap badge, with as mentioned, a bronzed version for service dress.

So, to sum up with regards to the original post...

RIF officers during WW1 invariably wore silver and gilt (or at least polished) badges in OSD contrary to what is published in DRs and on the 1906 Officers pattern card.

The cap badge had the Harp & Plume.

The collar badge the Eagle.

The grenade with Eagle ceased to be worn on the (FSC) cap badge c. 1902 and this design is predominately a collar badge design thereafter.

Bronzed versions of the designs are known but seem not to have been widely used (I have not studied the regiments photos pre-1914 to see if there is any pattern of usage discernible). Note that I have seen this habit and practice with other fusilier regiments also. For example, the Royal Munster Fusiliers mainly used silver and gilt badges by 1914, the official OSD badges being abandoned possibly unofficially. I have studied this regiment more thoroughly and during the Great War original OSD sized and bronzed badges can be found in use by certain battalions and individual but that is for another thread.

John

[leigh kitchen]

Thank you for that post.

[billy]

Hi John so the two lugged versions I have shown could indeed be Cap badges as they are a lot bigger than the Collars I have shown with the Eagle on them?

Cheers billy

[cbuehler]

Well, I guess this pretty much sums up the issue. Caps were indeed the harp and not the eagle during ww1.
Thanks much all!

CB