London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) metal STs

[Drew]

Hello Everyone,

I would be very grateful for any help you may be able to give with regard to two questions I have about the London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers).

1) Am I correct in thinking that at one time or another they wore titles as in the first picture I have attached?

2) Did they ever wear the T London title in the second picture?

Many thanks in advance,

Chris

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Drew

Hello Everyone,

I would be very grateful for any help you may be able to give with regard to two questions I have about the London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers).

1) Am I correct in thinking that at one time or another they wore titles as in the first picture I have attached?

2) Did they ever wear the T London title in the second picture?

Many thanks in advance,

Chris

Evening Chris,

1) Yes, these were worn by the Royal Fusiliers.

2) I'm afraid I cannot provide you with a definitive answer as to the Royal Fusiliers regarding the T/LONDON shoulder title, but would like to contribute the following to the discussion...

As has been posted once or twice in the past here on the forum, Westlake tells us in 'Collecting Metal Shoulder titles':

'T/CITY OF LONDON (1563, 1564) and T/LONDON (1565) are listed in the 1920 Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries, for wear by City and County battalions respectively. These titles are often seen in photographs being worn on the jackets. They are more frequently seen however, being worn on the greatcoat...'

Whether or not we should infer from this that these titles can be dated pre or post-1920, is unclear.

In addition, on p.134, he makes reference to the change in the 'numbered' London TF shoulder titles (for example: T/5/CITY OF LONDON, T/6/CITY OF LONDON, T/10/COUNTY OF LONDON etc.) regarding the lower tiers being superseded by 'LONDON', during the Great War period. Whether we can conclude from this that the 'T/LONDON' and 'T/CITY OF LONDON' titles also date from this period is in my opinion, also unclear.

That said, I think it is safe to say that 'T/CITY OF LONDON' was worn by those units designated as City of London battalions (battalions 1 to 8), and 'T/LONDON' by those designated as County of London battalions (battalions 9 to 28).

Here are some examples of both shoulder titles in situ - note that the City of London Rifleman wears the 'T/CITY OF LONDON', and that the men of the 13th and 19th battalions wear the 'T/LONDON', in keeping with Westlake's assertion.

6th City of London Battalion
T-CITY 1b.jpgT-CITY 1a.jpg

13th County of London Battalion
T-Lon 1b.jpgT-Lon 1a.jpg

19th County of London Battalion
T-Lon 2b.jpgT-Lon 2a.jpg

Based on this, the evidence appears to suggest that the Royal Fusiliers would not have worn the 'T/LONDON' title, given that Bns. 1 to 4, were City battalions. Not conclusive, of course, but perhaps a start to the debate.

JT

[Drew]

JT,

Thank you so much for that. You have given me a lot to think about with this. It is really impressive the way you have worked through the evidence to come up with this working hypothesis. I will go away and have a think about this and come back here.

I am very grateful to you for your input.

Cheers,

Chris

[wardog]

'Thanks' JT.

[Drew]

I should probably say that the reason for my raising this question, was because of looking at the attached photograph of a London Regiment soldier with T/London title and circular patch.

I thought the most likely candidate for the circular patch was either the 1st, 2nd or 4th London Regiment (yellow, green and red circles respectively). The T/London title thus confused me.

Another possibility was the 2/20th London Regiment after they transferred to the 185th Brigade, 62nd (West Riding) Division in 1918. However, I still thought it was worth double checking. JTs excellent evidence would seem to imply that this gentleman is indeed 2/20th Battalion.

Cheers,

Chris

*Also attached pg. 222 of The Second Twentieth, By Capt. W. R. Elliott M.C.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Drew

I should probably say that the reason for my raising this question, was because of looking at the attached photograph of a London Regiment soldier with T/London title and circular patch.

I thought the most likely candidate for the circular patch was either the 1st, 2nd or 4th London Regiment (yellow, green and red circles respectively). The T/London title thus confused me.

Another possibility was the 20th London Regiment after they transferred to the 185th Brigade, 62nd (West Riding) Division in 1918. However, I still thought it was worth double checking. JTs excellent evidence would seem to imply that this gentleman is indeed 20th Battalion.

Cheers,

Chris

*Also attached pg. 222 of The Second Twentieth, By Capt. W. R. Elliott M.C.

Chris,

Your deduction certainly seems to make sense.

Thanks for posting your images. Good to see those.

JT

[Postwarden]

To add to this debate the records of the Army Clothing Factory held at Kew announce the introduction of “Titles GM with pin and plate – T/London” for the London Regt TF on 31st March 1916. The use of London Regt TF implying all battalions of the regiment. On the 21st September that year they announce the introduction of Titles, Embroidered SD, Cloth, Drab, Melton, Thick; T London and T City of London.

Attached are two photos dating from 1912 showing the full metal titles worn by 1st and 2nd Bns.

Jon

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Postwarden

To add to this debate the records of the Army Clothing Factory held at Kew announce the introduction of “Titles GM with pin and plate – T/London” for the London Regt TF on 31st March 1916. The use of London Regt TF implying all battalions of the regiment. On the 21st September that year they announce the introduction of Titles, Embroidered SD, Cloth, Drab, Melton, Thick; T London and T City of London.

Attached are two photos dating from 1912 showing the full metal titles worn by 1st and 2nd Bns.

Jon

Jon,

So no mention therein of 'Titles GM with pin and plate – T/CITY OF LONDON' for the London Regiment TF?

JT

[Jelly Terror]

I hope this will not take the thread off at too much of a tangent and away from Chris' main point, but I am now wondering where/how the 'LONDON' title fits into the scheme of things?

I have a few of these, and a couple do appear to be broken-off bottom tiers of larger titles. However the example shown below, has absolutely no signs of ever having had other sections attached.

Moreover, should we assume that the 'LONDON' titles being worn in the two attached photos (which are of 20th County of London Battalion soldiers) are broken titles, or being worn as issued?

Regards,

JT

Lon Title 1a.jpgLon Title 1b.jpg

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Postwarden

To add to this debate the records of the Army Clothing Factory held at Kew announce the introduction of “Titles GM with pin and plate – T/London” for the London Regt TF on 31st March 1916. The use of London Regt TF implying all battalions of the regiment. On the 21st September that year they announce the introduction of Titles, Embroidered SD, Cloth, Drab, Melton, Thick; T London and T City of London.

Attached are two photos dating from 1912 showing the full metal titles worn by 1st and 2nd Bns.

Jon

Wonderful information, thank you so much for taking the time to think about this and sharing here. The plot thickens! I must confess to being a little confused by it all.

[Drew]

[QUOTE=Jelly Terror;401819]I hope this will not take the thread off at too much of a tangent and away from Chris' main point, but I am now wondering where/how the 'LONDON' title fits into the scheme of things?

I have a few of these, and a couple do appear to be broken-off bottom tiers of lager titles. However the example shown below, has absolutely no signs of ever having had other sections attached.

Moreover, should we assume that the 'LONDON' titles being worn in the two attached photos (which are of 20th County of London Battalion soldiers) are broken titles, or being worn as issued?

Regards,

JT

Once again JT I am indebted to you. Really interesting, useful stuff- thanks so much for your input. I don't think it is going off at a tangent since in this case, it seems like we need to understand the wider picture in order to understand anything.

Incidentally, the patch on your 20th London man looks more like a club than a spade, don't you think? The top looks too rounded for the point of a spade. If so, it would date the photo to February 1918 onwards.

Cheers,

Chris

[Drew]

Attached is what I believe the 20th Londons patches were both before and after February 1918. As yet I have not seen any official confirmation of this, but this general rule can be seen in numerous photographs.

I now believe my predictions here for 1918 to have been wrong. Apologies

[Jelly Terror]

[QUOTE=Drew;401841]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

I hope this will not take the thread off at too much of a tangent and away from Chris' main point, but I am now wondering where/how the 'LONDON' title fits into the scheme of things?

I have a few of these, and a couple do appear to be broken-off bottom tiers of lager titles. However the example shown below, has absolutely no signs of ever having had other sections attached.

Moreover, should we assume that the 'LONDON' titles being worn in the two attached photos (which are of 20th County of London Battalion soldiers) are broken titles, or being worn as issued?

Regards,

JT

Once again JT I am indebted to you. Really interesting, useful stuff- thanks so much for your input. I don't think it is going off at a tangent since in this case, it seems like we need to understand the wider picture in order to understand anything.

Incidentally, the patch on your 20th London man looks more like a club than a spade, don't you think? The top looks too rounded for the point of a spade. If so, it would date the photo to February 1918 onwards.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris,

I would say it looks less like a spade than a club, but am struggling to make out any clear outline.

Regarding the 'LONDON' title I mentioned previously, I think this picture goes some way to placing it in the scheme of things:

IMG_2006.JPGIMG_2007.JPG

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Drew

Attached is what I believe the 20th Londons patches were both before and after February 1918. As yet I have not seen any official confirmation of this, but this general rule can be seen in numerous photographs.

Excellent. Thank you.

[Drew]

That's great, thank you.

Just to clarify, am I right in saying this 'LONDON' one is part of a title of separate parts? ...A bit like the older London RF one. And that this evidence points to a post-WW1 date?

Many thanks,

Chris