Who Did This?

[Jelly Terror]

The cap badge worn by 5th Bn. of the Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment, was identical in every way to that of other battalions of the same regiment, apart from it being blackened.

What other regiments might have had battalions which did this... regular regimental cap badge, but in black?

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To interpret/paraphrase K&K, Churchill etc:

With the implementation in 1908, of Lord Haldane's reorganisation of the Reserve Forces, the Volunteers were formed into the Territorial Force. Some volunteer units who had previously been classified as Rifles, adopted the badge of the Line regiment of which they now formed a part, but denoting their Rifles heritage by wearing the badge with a black finish.

The lineage of the 5th Bn, Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) began 1860, when they were designated as 3rd Admin Bn. of the Surrey Rifle Volunteers; the senior corps being the 5th, which was formed in 1859.

In 1880, the battalion consolidated as 4th Surrey Rifle Volunteer Corps. Then in 1883, it was redesignated as the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Queen's Regiment.

With the commencement of Haldane's reforms in 1908, we see its transition into the 5th Bn. (TF) with blackened cap badge and black, Rifles buttons.

JT

[Alan O]

TF badges with blackened badges due to their Rifles Lineage were:

6th Bn DLI
4th Bn Devons
7th Bn Welsh (Cyclists)
East Yorkshire Cyclists
4th Bn Wiltshire
5th Bn Kings Liverpools.

Blank scroll - South Lancs 5th Bn and Glosters 4th Bn.

Inter war the East Surrey 6th Bn supposedly wore black regular badges

[Jelly Terror]

Thanks Alan

Would there have been many non-TF battalions?

JT

[Alan O]

Not sure I understand the question.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Not sure I understand the question.

Sorry... my clumsy attempt at asking a fairly straightforward question.

If any, which regiments (TF or Regulars) had battalions who wore blackened versions of the normal regimental cap badge?

So for example, (as above) the 5th Bn. of the Queen’s wore the normal cap badge, but in black. However, the 6th Bn. East Surrey wore a blackened badge but it was of a different design to the regiment's usual badge worn by their other battalions. Same with the Bucks Bn, of the OBLI; blackened badge but different design to other battalions of the regiment.

Do you see what I mean? Normal badge of the regiment, but blackened.

JT

[Alan O]

The list of regular badges in black is the one above. These 6 Bns wore black badges up to Ww1. Post war the Kings kept BB badges up to 1926.

The 6th bn Surreys wore a different badge up to 1920 and then after that the regular pattern one.

Alan

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The list of regular badges in black is the one above.

The 6th bn Surreys wore a different badge up to 1920 and then after that the regular pattern one.

Alan

That’ll teach me not to have more than one flaming torch in the air whilst posting. Apologies, I hadn’t read your first reply properly. Thanks for that.

JT

[Jelly Terror]

How about the blackening process; were these badges blackened at point of manufacture, or at some later stage perhaps?

[Alan O]

I believe that the 1908 TF badges were ordered from the makers already blackened in the same way that the s/title and buttons were made blackened. Now I am sure that some were reblackened by the wearers.

The bb badges were one piece brass unlike the regular bimetal ones.

Post WW1 the DLI TF and 6th Kings were issued bb badges. I am unclear whether the Surreys were issued or simply 1916 stock locally painted.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I believe that the 1908 TF badges were ordered from the makers already blackened in the same way that the s/title and buttons were made blackened. Now I am sure that some were reblackened by the wearers.

The bb badges were one piece brass unlike the regular bimetal ones.

Post WW1 the DLI TF and 6th Kings were issued bb badges. I am unclear whether the Surreys were issued or simply 1916 stock locally painted.

So, pre-1916 at least, badges such as the QRWS pattern were manufactured from gilding metal, with an overlaid, white-metal scroll. The gilding metal section of the scroll would have had no lettering stamped into it, because the white metal overlay bore the name of the regiment:

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However, in the case of the badges made for the 5th Bn., no overlaid scroll would have been used (as per your point above) and so the integral scroll section would have been stamped with lettering (loops on example shown below notwithstanding):

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Would this have entailed using a separate die for this badge, or could the die for the bi-metal badge have been somehow modified to accommodate the 5th Bn version?

Secondly, do we know what the blackening process would have entailed?

With thanks,

JT

[KLR]

Yes, of course it would be made from a different die. We pointed this out in the MHS Bull article on 1st WW badges. There are a number of cases of BB badges being "cleaned" and passed off as 1916 "all GM" badges.
A minor correction - the 5th Bn King's Regt were given a new issued badge on 26-04-1921, Pattern 3510/1921 which was all WM !

[Alan O]

Here is the inevitable exception to rule! This one is all brass and the brass can be seen though the blacking of the sheep so it is not a bi-metal one.

The reverse of the scroll is smooth and not stamped. This is because there is an overlaid scroll! The only reason to do this is if the sheep dies was also used for other badges - perhaps one of the several OTCs that used the Queen's sheep with a school title scroll?

As I understand it the blackening was done using the same process as bronzing officers' badge where a powder was applied and baked on. Official documents often describe the patterns as 'bronzed' even though the shade was black. These badges have often been re-blacked or painted in the intervening years.

Alan

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by KLR

Yes, of course it would be made from a different die. We pointed this out in the MHS Bull article on 1st WW badges. There are a number of cases of BB badges being "cleaned" and passed off as 1916 "all GM" badges.
A minor correction - the 5th Bn King's Regt were given a new issued badge on 26-04-1921, Pattern 3510/1921 which was all WM !

Thanks Julian. Just reread your fascinating article.

Originally Posted by Alan O

Here is the inevitable exception to rule! This one is all brass and the brass can be seen though the blacking of the sheep so it is not a bi-metal one.

The reverse of the scroll is smooth and not stamped. This is because there is an overlaid scroll! The only reason to do this is if the sheep dies was also used for other badges - perhaps one of the several OTCs that used the Queen's sheep with a school title scroll?

As I understand it the blackening was done using the same process as bronzing officers' badge where a powder was applied and baked on. Official documents often describe the patterns as 'bronzed' even though the shade was black. These badges have often been re-blacked or painted in the intervening years.

Alan

Thanks for posting this Alan; that’s pretty interesting. I’ve seen this badge previously in your album, of course.

I’m a little confused though; perhaps you can put me right? You say this badge is not bi-metal, yet confirm it has an overlaid scroll. Is there any indication that the overlaid section is not white-metal?

The reason I ask this is because every badge I have seen to date struck from this particular die (my reference ‘Type 3A’) has been of two-piece construction; main body G/M, scroll overlay W/M. All examples have an absence of *stamp marks and vent holes to the rear of the scroll.

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I take your point regarding badges being of two-piece construction as a means of facilitating the interchanging of overlaid scrolls to accommodate different units, though to date I have not come across badges to units other than the Queen’s Regiment who wore badges struck from this specific die. I would genuinely like to see any such examples, as the information would be invaluable for my research.

*The reverse of the ‘Type 3A’ badge scrolls display varying degrees of smoothness. Whilst some are completely smooth and show no letter marks whatsoever, others do have vague impressions of letter marks, though not to any significant degree. A possible explaination for this might be a variation in the pressure applied to both sections during the brazing process.

(Below: three examples of the ‘Type 3A’ badge reverse scroll, showing varying degrees of smoothness):

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JT

[Alan O]

Without removing the blacking I can't say for certain that the overlaid scroll is brass or nickel but I am reluctant to scrub it off!

Alan

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Without removing the blacking I can't say for certain that the overlaid scroll is brass or nickel but I am reluctant to scrub it off!

Alan

Go on! Get the wire brush on it, Alan!