Recovering Stolen Medals - advice Please! - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Neil Pearce · #1 18-10-12, 02:01 PM

My brother in laws grandfather was Geoffrey Pomfrey

The DSM etc was stolen about a year before he died when their house was burgled. The burglary was reported to the police and the medals listed

Christie's sold them about 2 months after he died, it's as if somebody was waiting till he was nicely buried!

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...jectID=1757649

The buyer has been traced to Canada and the family is making enquiries as to whether they have a legal case to recover them.

Presumably if they were still in the UK, they it could be recovered easily, as it is clearly stolen property that can be identified and was registered with the police crime report at the time of the burglary...the buyer would be able to recoup their loss from Christie's. Both Christie's and the seller were handling stolen goods?

The family are furious as it looks as though nothing can be done!

Has anyone had a similar experience, or know what to do in this situation?

Any advice would be much appreciated, as these medals need to stay in the family!

Thanks, Neil

Old Smelly · #2 18-10-12, 02:49 PM

Not an expert but fairly sure that they can be recovered, especially as it involves Canada. Hope they are returned
Lee

Phillip Herring · #3 18-10-12, 02:50 PM

I have had a similar experience.
An uncle's medals were stolen from his home a number of years ago (in the UK). The theft was reported to the police at the time.
I found the medals in the listings of a UK auction house a few years later, but the auction had already ended. The medals had been sold to a buyer in the UK.
I sent all of the information I had to my cousins in the UK. They contacted the police and the medals were recovered and returned to the family.
I would contact the RCMP in Canada to see if they can help since stolen property is stolen property.

Phil

Eddie Parks · #4 18-10-12, 04:47 PM

Was an insurance claim made when they were stolen? If so the medals are now the property of the insurance company and the family has no legal interest in them. You may need to persuade the company to request police action to recover the medals, if that is successful you will have to negotiate with the company for their return. They are under no obligation to do so and might opt to sell them on the open market.
Eddie

grenadierguardsman · #5 18-10-12, 04:52 PM

Good luck with you getting them back.

Neil Pearce · #6 18-10-12, 10:42 PM

Many thanks to all for the valuable advice. The RCMP will be contacted as suggested. So far, the UK police have apparently been fairly unhelpful

I will let you know how they get on on due course
Best Regards

William · #7 19-10-12, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Pearce

Many thanks to all for the valuable advice. The RCMP will be contacted as suggested. So far, the UK police have apparently been fairly unhelpful

I will let you know how they get on on due course
Best Regards

UK police unhelpful? What a surprise!

geezer#199 · #8 19-10-12, 01:00 PM

Neal

I am a retired member of the RCMP, retired in 2005 after 33 years, and I have dealt with a number of issues surrounding stolen propety from another country over that period of time. A couple of things.

The add from Christie's clearly states who the Medals belong to. I am not a collector of Medals but do know that certain WW 2 Medals are identified to a person but a lot of them are not. Do these Medals have any identifying marks such as the name on any of the Medals? Did the family contact the local authorities and look into who put the items up for sale? Was he/she prosecuted?

Depending on where the Medals ended up, if they ended up in Ontario or Quebec, the family would have to contact the Ontario Provincial Police or the Quebec Provincial Police as the RCMP only do Federal Policing in those provinces. In any other province they would get in touch with the RCMP Detachment that has jurisdiction in that area. Also if the items are in a major city, such as Vancouver for an example, they would have to get in touch with that cities Police Force as not all the major cities are policed by the RCMP. Do they know the city that they ended up in, I may be able to assist as I still have a lot of contacts in the RCMP and a young guy who used to work for me was just appointed the SM for British Columbia and he is a collector of Memorabilia.

Jack

Bill A · #9 19-10-12, 01:49 PM

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but if the buyer purchased the medals in good faith from a reputable dealer, and the dealer believed the medals were free and clear property, I am not sure there is much that can be done. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but ignorance of a situation can be a defence. The current owner has not done anything criminal from what has been related. It may be that the issue is with the dealer and did the dealer do their due diligence in making sure the medals were not stolen property. I am not familiar with British criminal and common law, and there may be differences in the process.
Perhaps another course of action would be to find the current owner and indicate the family is willing to purchase the medals back? I know this is not "justice", but it may result in the return of the medals.

altcar73 · #10 19-10-12, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but if the buyer purchased the medals in good faith from a reputable dealer, and the dealer believed the medals were free and clear property, I am not sure there is much that can be done. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but ignorance of a situation can be a defence. The current owner has not done anything criminal from what has been related. It may be that the issue is with the dealer and did the dealer do their due diligence in making sure the medals were not stolen property. I am not familiar with British criminal and common law, and there may be differences in the process.
Perhaps another course of action would be to find the current owner and indicate the family is willing to purchase the medals back? I know this is not "justice", but it may result in the return of the medals.

In England and Wales, where property is stolen and bought innocently by a third party, the property is STILL stolen property not withstanding the innocent action of the purchaser. As previously outlined, an insurance "payout" may result in ownership rights being transfered to the company. However, that would very much depend upon the terms and conditions of an insurance policy. In England & Wales the police would (or should) seek to recover the stolen property. This would be a "follow on" from the original report of crime. Your starting point shouild be the police force in whose area the original offence of theft took place. It is their responsibility to contact the police in the area where the property currently resides. That said, it is often difficult in some cases to generate interest particularly after a long period. Be persistant, follow up your visit with a recorded delivery letter addressed to the Area Commander. Ask for his name and address the letter personally. The fact that the property may no longer be in the UK may complicate matters. However, it is for the British Police to seek resolve that issue with their overseas counterparts. Good luck.

geezer#199 · #11 19-10-12, 04:19 PM

Bill

Altar is right, stolen property is stolen property, whether it is still in England or in Canada.

Christie's Auction, from what I know of it, is a reputable business and I would like to think that they did a certain amount of due diligence in making sure the property was as stated in that the seller had a legitimate claim to it and sold it in good faith.

Yes, maybe the receiving party in Canada could be approached and would voluntarily return them to the rightful owner and it would be a good gesture on the part of the family to reimburse them as they did buy them in good faith through the auction house.

The normal course of action would be for the police in England to get in touch with the proper authority in Canada, be it RCMP, Provincial Police or City Police and have them do the investigation.

I know the value is much different, but if one of the pieces of art that was most recently stolen ended up in Canada, it is still stolen property and would be investigated as such. The only difference in the art case is that the receiver, would in all likelihood know it was stolen. In the case of the Medals they may not as it was purchased from a legit business.

There has been a lot of stories in recent years about people trying to reunite families with medals in Canada and the lengths people go to to do same. I would like to think that there would be some compassion in this case as well. I know, if the case ended up in my Detachment, when I was in charge, I would make sure that all could be done to locate them and return them to the rightful owner, and who knows, sometimes the soft approach is the best approach. If it does not happen then, one can always turn up the heat.

One of the S/Sgt's I worked for, many years ago was a Veteran of, I believe the Korean War, and was also awarded the RCMP Long Service Medal. His LSM is named and the other medals were not. He had them stolen and never did get them back. He was devistated.

He was re issued his medals but the originals were never located, probably in someones collection or who knows even melted down for the silver.

Jack

Neil Pearce · #12 19-10-12, 09:30 PM

Gentlemen

Once again, many thanks for your valuable input on this. We are progressing slowly with the investigations. Christies seem to be the hottest lead so far. They are asking for the exact date of theft, crime number etc

I will post updates when able.

Best Regards

Sawstonjohn · #13 19-10-12, 10:32 PM

I would suggest contacting the British Medals Forum - I am sure they will be able to add to the useful advice already given

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/index.php

I hope you are succesfull in recovering them

RCN · #14 20-10-12, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geezer#199

Bill

One of the S/Sgt's I worked for, many years ago was a Veteran of, I believe the Korean War, and was also awarded the RCMP Long Service Medal. His LSM is named and the other medals were not. He had them stolen and never did get them back.

Jack

If he received a Queens' Korea medal (the Canadian silver issue) it would have been officially named with his service number & name - no unit.
All Canadian Queen's Korea's were named. For RCN members the UNO (bronze) Korea was also officially named.

RCN Bryan