81st Regiment of Foot ??????

[yorkie]

Hello Could anyone comment on this Victorian CDV I bought some time ago. I was hoping it was a West Yorks Regiment because of the Rose on the collars; But upon looking through a glass I see the number 81 next to the Rose. Could this be the 81st Regiment of foot or the Loyal Lincoln Volunteers.
The 2nd Photograph looks very much like a soldier from the York and Lanks Regt. Any Comments Please,

[manchesters]

The first one is not military, its a police officer or at a pinch a prison officer.

Cant see any detail on the 2nd.

regards

[badger123]

I agree with Simon, the first picture looks very prison like.

Re the second picture, if it were a York and Lancs soldier, I would expect to see a Tiger as a collar badge but unfortunately the picture is not quite clear enough.

Ivan

[davidwyke]

Hi Yorkie

The first one is almost certainly West Riding Constabulary.

Second one, as Ivan says, if it's a rose/tiger it's probably York & Lancs. It's very indistinct but looks like it could be a tiger.

David

Going back to the WRC photo, it probably dates c.1880's, give or take a few years. The chevrons on his cuff are rank. if there are 3 = Sgt. I think the other badges on his sleeve relate to service and/or pay grade.

I'm not sure if the shako/ kepi was worn all year round or not at that time. From at least the 1890's it was only worn for part of the year, a helmet being worn for the rest of the year.

The buttons on his tunic would be a rose surrounded by the force title. His collar badges are a rose along with his collar number. The buttons and collar badges remained the same right up to 1968 but they were white metal at the time of the photo, changing to chrome from c.1930's. The numbers were transferred to the shoulder straps with the introduction of the open-necked tunic but they were still known as "collar numbers".

Hope this helps!

David

[yorkie]

Many thanks, Simon, Ivan and David. The above Photographs came to me in a group of over 20 I purchaed via ebay some time ago and only just recently got a second look at them, Most of them were Early Leeds Rifles and I guess some unknown Volunteers but all with Leeds or Bradford Photographers.
I very much appreciate the time you guys put into it for me.

[davidwyke]

Happy to help, Yorkie!

I've sent a reply to your PM.

David

[Toby Purcell]

I agree with the above assessments and would add that the policeman is a Station Sergeant (3 inverted chevrons lower right sleeve). The soldier is York and Lancs and wearing a Home Service Frock (7-buttons) as opposed to a tunic which would have been piped. The regiment's first collar badge was a tiger and then the pattern changed to have the rose added, thus representing both the forming units.

[grumpy]

But what is the "scroll" or whatever over the three chevrons anybody please?

Or is it a blemish?

[yorkie]

Originally Posted by grumpy

But what is the "scroll" or whatever over the three chevrons anybody please?

Or is it a blemish?

The scroll scroll reads MERIT. cheers Andy.

[davidwyke]

As Andy has said, the scroll is a Merit Badge. Many forces used these but the design of badge used varied greatly, as did what it actually represented. A few other Yorkshire forces used the same pattern badge, I think Doncaster did for one. It was also used elsewhere, I think Glamorgan used the same or similar.

As regards what rank the 3 chevrons represent, it depends very much on when the photo was taken. As far as WRC is concerned, originally all WRC Sgts wore 3 inverted chevs on the cuff and there was no rank of Station Sgt. I think the Met was the first force to introduce a Station Sgt rank (c.1870's) and it was subsequently adopted by many other forces. I'm not sure if WRC adopted the rank before the chevrons were changed to point down on the upper arm or not, would be interested to know though.

David

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

As Andy has said, the scroll is a Merit Badge. Many forces used these but the design of badge used varied greatly, as did what it actually represented. A few other Yorkshire forces used the same pattern badge, I think Doncaster did for one. It was also used elsewhere, I think Glamorgan used the same or similar.

As regards what rank the 3 chevrons represent, it depends very much on when the photo was taken. As far as WRC is concerned, originally all WRC Sgts wore 3 inverted chevs on the cuff and there was no rank of Station Sgt. I think the Met was the first force to introduce a Station Sgt rank (c.1870's) and it was subsequently adopted by many other forces. I'm not sure if WRC adopted the rank before the chevrons were changed to point down on the upper arm or not, would be interested to know though.

David

Thanks David, that extra detail is very interesting. It would be good to know more about the usage of station sergeant as a superior grade.

[davidwyke]

Hello Toby

As regards Station Sergeant, it's hard to be specific . In the early days whether a rank was used, what duties it entailed and what insignia was worn would be at the discretion of individual Chief Constables. Having said that, many forces took their lead from the Metropolitan Police. I think they were the first force to use the rank, it would have been introduced in the early 1870's. The rank was held by the senior sergeant at a particular police station. In later years it tended to be used more as a "reward" for long serving Sgt 's who wished to retain Sgt rank rather than be promoted. Of course, in many cases such an officer would be the senior Sgt at a station but by this time it had become the norm for a Sgt to be promoted direct to Insp without having first held S/Sgt rank.

The Met Station Sergeants originally wore 4 chevrons. They were worn points down on the upper arm from the start or from early on at least. In the early 1920's this was changed to a crown above 3 chevrons, also worn points down on the upper arm. This was usually the insignia worn by other forces which used the rank.

David

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hello Toby

As regards Station Sergeant, it's hard to be specific . In the early days whether a rank was used, what duties it entailed and what insignia was worn would be at the discretion of individual Chief Constables. Having said that, many forces took their lead from the Metropolitan Police. I think they were the first force to use the rank, it would have been introduced in the early 1870's. The rank was held by the senior sergeant at a particular police station. In later years it tended to be used more as a "reward" for long serving Sgt 's who wished to retain Sgt rank rather than be promoted. Of course, in many cases such an officer would be the senior Sgt at a station but by this time it had become the norm for a Sgt to be promoted direct to Insp without having first held S/Sgt rank.

The Met Station Sergeants originally wore 4 chevrons. They were worn points down on the upper arm from the start or from early on at least. In the early 1920's this was changed to a crown above 3 chevrons, also worn points down on the upper arm. This was usually the insignia worn by other forces which used the rank.

David

Thank you. That is very interesting and I would love to get a book on the evolution of Police ranks. My grandfather was in the Berkshire Constabulary ( I have various old photos of him in uniform) and my father was in the BTP and various cousins in the Met.