Cambridgeshire Regiment badges

[Tinto]

Hi all,
Here are mine for comparison. Both CAMBRIDGESHIRE.
Cheers, Tinto

[Alan Y]

Hello Andy

Thanks for the reply, I was thinking the bright one was more likely to be a restrike but that’s cleared it up.

Regards Alan

Hello Tinto

Thanks for the images, my bright badge looks very similar to your second image, so that’s reassuring, and along with Andy’s view, I think that’s been very helpful.

Regards Alan

[Tinto]

Hi Alan,
However, my badge on the right, has slider affixed higher up. This may be a restrike?
Cheers, Tinto

[Alan Y]

Hello Tinto

I’ve jus noticed that, it looks as if your badges are the opposite to mine on the back, but the fronts look very similar.

Regards Alan

[badjez]

Attached is an official WO photo of a Cambs Regt badge, passed by the censors on 10 Feb 1944. Note tht the 'e' is missing. I'm not sure that these badges can be considered as 'mistakes' or 're-strikes'. Certainly Andy's point that the slider was fixed wrong is questionable. Not every badge has the slider in the same place. Sometimes it depended upon who was doing the work.

It may just be another myth, but I have been told that the missing 'e' was used to remind the British public, Home Guard and ACF that whenever they looked at the badge something was missing from Cambridgeshire: i.e. the men of both battalions of the Cambridgeshire Regt who were prisoners of the Japanese. During WW2 the badge without the 'e' would only have been worn by HG and ACF post December 1941.

Stephen.

[2747andy]

"Certainly Andy's point that the slider was fixed wrong is questionable. Not every badge has the slider in the same place. Sometimes it depended upon who was doing the work."


Stephen,
the slider position is often a key factor in whether or not a badge is genuine or a copy/restrike. It would certainly not be just a case of who was doing the work. The slider position would have to be uniform/exact on each badge, so that when fitted to the cap they sat in the same position. Genuine badges often had a guide mark, usually a braze spot to indicate to the "Slider or Lug Fitter" where exactly the fitting should be attached. The slider position can also give an indication to the age/period of wear. For example on WW1 era badges they were fitted very central but later moved during manufacture (probably on the introduction of the beret?) to the upper edges and there is evidence (c.March 1931) to show this change of position was authorised.

Andy

[orasot]

Andy,
Can you let us know where you get this info from, I certainly don't go along with the idea of a braze spot for the "fitter" to fix the slider to, can you honestly believe they would go to the trouble of putting a spot of braze on a badge, which I think would need flux first (ask Dave or Andy ? ) then try to braze a slider on top of existing braze ? All this in a time when they were knocking them out rapid ! The men doing this work would have been on a price per hundred/thousand or whatever, hence misplaced or crooked sliders, & quality control certainly would not have looked at every badge, they would inspect a batch now & then perhaps, even up until lately letting people know when they were coming !! All my opinion of course !!!
Wilf

[KLR]

Andy, I'd be very interested to know what your 1931 evidence is ! as far as I understand, apart from Tanks etc and unofficial adoption during the war, the beret was not introduced for general wear until about 1946. Even the similar "GS Cap" was only introduced early in the 2nd WW.
J

['Ticker' Riley]

Gentlemen

Although I do realise I’m still very much the new boy when it comes to badge collecting, I have to say that I personally think that both Stephen (badjez) and Andy (2747andy) have valid points here. I have been wondering for some time about any possible significance in slider position and how it can vary, in fact I have been meaning to post up a thread about things in specific relation to some of my Leicesters badges but just haven’t got ’round to it I’m afraid. Anyway, I think that Stephen is correct inasmuch as sometimes it did largely depend on who happened to be doing the work, and as Wilf (orasot) says there would have been plenty of misplaced or crooked sliders that made it through to be issued, merely because they couldn’t quality control check every single one.

Having said that, I do have a number of Leicesters badges, of at least two different manufacturers’ types, where the sliders are attached to the top ‘Hindoostan’ title, and which would have therefore significantly altered the position of the badge when worn. It does seem logical, to me at least, that this could well be connected with the introduction of something like the GS cap. I too would obviously like to know if there is any evidence of this, but I think we shouldn’t discount the possibility that this could be a factor in accounting for sliders placed higher than expected on a badge, which would, of course, also then indicate a particular period of wear if this was associated with a certain kind of headgear.

I have to say that I do not think slider position can be directly linked to whether a badge is genuine or not, as I personally think there could be a number of reasons as to why a slider is in a particular place on a badge. One final point regarding the use of braze spots as ‘guide marks’ to show where to affix a slider or lugs, although I can’t really comment on this I do have what I believe is evidence of a badge being marked by black spots ready for lugs to be fitted:

The above badge is a ‘kitten-faced’ Uppingham one, and although it is fitted with a slider there are clearly two black marks where lugs could have gone. I also have this same maker’s type of Uppingham badge with lugs fitted in exactly the same position as the spots on this badge, so I have to say I think there is room to believe some badges were marked out, at least where the fixing of lugs is concerned. Why this particular Uppingham one was not fitted with lugs but with a slider, and I have no doubt the slider is original, I cannot say, but it does indeed look to be marked out for them.

Regards

Martin

[Alan Y]

Thanks Stephen,
That’s an interesting bit of information about the Regiment I’d not come across before. I was wondering when the badge without the ‘e’ was made and I thought I’d read somewhere that it was during WW2 so that would tie in with that. Did it also have the same spelling either side of WW2 or just in this time span ?

Slider information also very interesting – Thanks to all for your information.
Alan.

[Keith Blakeman]

Interesting thread. Without having a definite answer as to whether pre-marking the areas for fixings was the norm, I have one badge which I think is what Andy may be getting at as I believe he may have (had) a similar one and that's the nickel 7th Dragoons. It has braze on the areas where loops are normally found but is fitted with a shank. Unfortunately I don't have a scan of it to show.

[Alan O]

This one is 100% genuine as I know where it has been since the 1940s and provides a useful comparison.

[Alan Y]

Thanks Alan O

The pattern of your badge looks almost identical to my dark coloured one, including the slider position, very helpful images,

Regards Alan

[orasot]

I would say if a badge had braze on it, then at one time it simply had lugs on it, had them removed, then a slider fitted.
Wilf.

[2747andy]

I've been out all day and now watching the footy, so not able to post any images in support. Although I'd be prepared to give an inch on slider positioning, I will not budge on the pre-marking for fitting positioning..

My 1931 info Julian was supplied by you in relation to the East Lancs Regt moving of slider position:

"A quick search through the archives at Kew (ACD records) gives the development of the E Lancs cap badge. The sequence is indeed as Andy surmised but here are the dates.
Oct 1897 lugs, QVC
Nov 1901 lugs, KC
Nov 1905 slider positioned behind sphinx
Mar 1931 slider repositioned - the record does not state where to but presumably behind the crown.

Which I believe was a change made for some form of headdress.

I have been lucky enough to have handled tens of thousands of badges over the past few years and as Keith and "Ticker" (Martin) have eluded, there are signs to be found on badges where the fittings should go! Most of the time these go un-noticed as they are obscured by the fittings themselves. Although I have not seen the marks Martin has shown us, I have come across "Braze Spots" and flattened areas. Badge construction is not the "Slap Dash" process some might lead us to believe. Lugs and sliders in my opinion must be standard and not placed at random. As to taking "more time", preparation time spent marking up, as many a DIYer will know saves time in the long run!

I'm sure there will be more to emerge on this subject!

Andy