Need help on cloth shoulder Titles WWII or Post WWII

[Phill Lockett]

Hi all

Still coming to grips with WWII or post WWII issued cloth Shoulder titles and their manufacture and construction.

I want to add WWII CST to my fledgling display collection.

Beds and Herts

North Stafford

East Surrey

Royal Norfolk

Staffordshire

The Hampshire Regiment

cheers

Phill

[Postwarden]

What seems like a simple question is hard to answer.

Titles like the ones you show ie curved and embroidered were never an official issue in WW2. At that time similar embroidered titles were officially restricted to the Foot Guards and later the Household Cavalry, the APTC and the curved Airborne designation worn by the Airborne forces.

To complicate matters quite a few regiments such as the Royal Norfolks and Hampshires adopted coloured embroidered titles unofficially, a practice frowned on by the War Office. In 1943 official issue printed titles were introduced and unofficial embroidered ones banned.

However many regiments disliked them and bought embroidered versions, the most common of which are those known as pastebacks - your East Surreys title is one of them. The source of these remains unknown but they were never an issue from military sources and were probably bought from the numerous small badge shops that existed in wartime.

Official production of embroidered titles began again in 1946 but they were made by a variety of manufacturers. Your North Stafford title looks like an official issue from that period. In the early 1950s several regiments applied for and were eventually granted official permission to wear coloured titles which in several cases were identical to those worn unofficially before 1943. and in some cases had been readopted after the war. Your Royal Norfolks title is one of the postwar official issues based on the wartime title's colours although most WW2 titles have serifs. The attached scan of a sample pattern postwar title shows one example of the backing type.

The Hampshire Regiment title is post-war but unofficial, and ceased to be worn after it became the Royal Hampshire Regiment in 1946. The Staffordshire title dates from the late 1950s when the North Stafford amalgamated with the South Staffords so is definitely not wartime

To sum up your titles; only the pasteback (or glue back) East Surreys could be said to be wartime albeit unofficial. If you are concentrating on wartime titles I'd go for the printed ones as they are the only guaranteed WW2 official titles. Alternatively you could go for the official slip-on black on khaki titles which were widely worn and which in my opinion are now undervalued

Sorry if I have rained on your parade but hope it helps.

Jon

[JerryBB]

An excellent detailed posting on the subject, thanks Jon.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Jon

No you have not rained on my parade , infact you have confirmed what I believed that most are post WWII made , excluding the East Surrey paste back.

I did come across a photo of a WWII worn Hampshire Regt title with serif (also looked longer than the one I posted) and info regarding the later introduction in the 50's. That and the Staffordshire has paste back on the backing cloth but the tighter weave did not look WWII era compared to what I have seen, if that makes sense!

The Bedford and Hertford style , on Britton's site is listed as post WWII.

Your post has been extremely helpful and encouraging, I also like the independent views from regiments regarding unofficial v official issued design which complicates matters.

I did get the feel that WWII cloth titles were a "specialist"(research with known examples) area as I scoured the forum and net looking for specific info from any noted sources, surprisingly not that much info is out there that I could confirm WWII era cloth titles.

Hopefully others will take note of what you have posted.

Thank you and I do appreciate the reply.

Phill

[Frank Kelley]

Phil,
If I were you and wanted WW2 titles, I would certainly consider some good and original printed examples, the only draw back is the prices now being both sought and indeed actually, paid, when I collected those as a child, they could be had for very little, a couple of pounds, or so, these days, it has gone to over ten times that on average.
Regards Frank

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Frank

Thanks for the advise and yes I was thinking along the same lines. There are not many that I would need for representation display purposes ,so half a dozen is what i am looking at and NO not the rare $$$$.

Several pounds as a kid that still would of been a lot of pinger back then Id imagine.

cheers Frank

Phill

[KLR]

As an example the Sealed Pattern card at the IWM for the King's Regiment (Liverpool) printed version was sealed on 27.3.43 as Patt 12555/1943, CB 2144. Interestingly, the card was annotated “replaced by emb pattern” unfortunately without a reference or date but presumably 1946 - thanks to Postwarden's concise explanation.

I just found the CCN 1949 entry which lists 'Title Arm embroidered or printed' as (the same) CB 2144 - THE KING'S REGIMENT
immediately below is 'Titles arm embroidered or printed' as CB 1123 - KING's R

And here is the 1953 CCN data
Titles Embroidered
X 2614 KING’S green
(LoC 4286 October 1950 introduction of black on green slip on titles. Vocab 31st August 1950 )
X 1123 KING’S khaki
(LoC 4286 as above change to designation by adding the word khaki.)


confused or what !?

(I lose interest after 1958 so can't provide post-amalgamation details)

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Phil,
Yes, when you are a child, what you need, is an understanding father and that is what I had, happy days, sometimes, I wish I could return to them.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Hi Frank

Thanks for the advise and yes I was thinking along the same lines. There are not many that I would need for representation display purposes ,so half a dozen is what i am looking at and NO not the rare $$$$.

Several pounds as a kid that still would of been a lot of pinger back then Id imagine.

cheers Frank

Phill

[JerryBB]

Some of the printed titles have got very expensive, I saw a Devon title sell on ebay recently for more than £100. The possibility of an airborne connection seems to drive the prices up, even if there is no actual link on an individual title.

Thankfully mine was quite a bit cheaper.

Others can still be picked up for more sensible prices, the corps for instance, but most printed infantry titles start at about £25.

[Frank Kelley]

One Hundred Pounds!
Seriously?

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Some of the printed titles have got very expensive, I saw a Devon title sell on ebay recently for more than £100. The possibility of an airborne connection seems to drive the prices up, even if there is no actual link on an individual title.

Thankfully mine was quite a bit cheaper.

Others can still be picked up for more sensible prices, the corps for instance, but most printed infantry titles start at about £25.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

One Hundred Pounds!
Seriously?

Frank,

it went for £107.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2019207902...943&rmvSB=true

[Frank Kelley]

LOL, that's even worse!

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks guys for the replies.

Frank,as a history buff , I like hearing stories from passionate collectors on how collections are/were assembled and what was it like back in the day 40's-70's, how prevalent were insignia (I collect cloth)to collect, could you waltz into a surplus store and pick what we now scrap over on ebay , the general feeling of collecting and then the boom!!!

Jerry yes I'm looking at 25 quid($NZ 45+shipping) per printed so I have to be selective and careful on what I'm after.

So my collection will based on legit WWII era representation of the units that partook in operations with an-noted details.

I don't mind official legit made post war cloth FS or CST as long as I have the details of when in usage any specific details like the 3 variations of Beds and Herts CST(1946-59) so I look up as much info on the units during that time period.

Apologies for the late reply guys.

Phill